www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Greece holds first Gay Weddings

The cancer of all sorts of moral confusion and moral relativism, including this one, is spreading, and, unfortunately I do not believe that anything will stop it:


http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080603/od_uk_nm/oukoe_uk_greece_gay_wedding

One would have thought that the isle of Lesbos would have been their preferred location.

Up here, Catholic politicians with relatives who teach in Catholic schools rush to promote this sort of thing.

Alex

Actually some people on the island of Lesbos are fighting to keep there name from being used for something that they believe subjects them to disgrace throughout the World http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7376919.stm

OOPS, sorry--this was news, but not 'Church News'...

Alice, the sometimes confused!

Seems to me that there are one or more Saints connected with Mitylene.

Fr. Serge

Yeah, I'm pretty sure she isn't the first "Greek Lesbian" to get married.

Haven't actual Lesbians (i.e., inhabitants of Lesbos) been getting married for quite some time?

I mean, I'm not tryin' to steal her thunder and all, but come on...

Alexis

With the understanding that news reports should not be taken as an accurate source of theology, and even less so when they are reporting remarks originally made in another language, I would ask the theologically learned among us to consider the statement attributed to Father Stylianos Karpathiou, who is said to have told state NET TV in Greece:

"Homosexuality is a curse, a deadly sin, it goes against psychological and biological normality."

Does Orthodoxy hold that every homosexual is responsible for being in an abnormal "psychological and biological" state? Does Orthodoxy consider that the condition of being homosexual, in and of itself and apart from any homosexual act, is "a curse" and "a deadly sin"? What does Orthodoxy teach is the spiritual consequence of being homosexual? How does Orthodoxy consider that a homosexual can avoid what would otherwise be the necessary spiritual consequences of this curse? Can a "non-practicing" homosexual be an Orthodox Christian? Is the teaching of Orthodoxy (if accurately reflected in the Reuters report of Fr. Stylianos' statement) compatible with the pronouncements of various Catholic bodies (including the NCCB, I believe)?

Tim,

I do see your point, and I think from a Catholic perspective, Father's comments would be technically theologically inaccurate, insofar as homosexuality itself is not a sin, but homosexual acts are.

Alexis

Does Orthodoxy hold that every homosexual is responsible for being in an abnormal "psychological and biological" state? Does Orthodoxy consider that the condition of being homosexual, in and of itself and apart from any homosexual act, is "a curse" and "a deadly sin"? What does Orthodoxy teach is the spiritual consequence of being homosexual? How does Orthodoxy consider that a homosexual can avoid what would otherwise be the necessary spiritual consequences of this curse? Can a "non-practicing" homosexual be an Orthodox Christian? Is the teaching of Orthodoxy (if accurately reflected in the Reuters report of Fr. Stylianos' statement) compatible with the pronouncements of various Catholic bodies (including the NCCB, I believe)?


I think that part of the issue and opportunity here is that there really is not a clearly articulated theology of sexuality. There certainly is /are plenty of ethics but no articulation of the theology of sexuality. It is an opportunity to witness to Christian anthropology rooted in the Trinity that I think is passing by with some grave consequences.
[/quote]

Well, I'll admit right off the bat that it is difficult to answer your questions definitively (Does Orthodoxy teach...? What does Orthodoxy teach? How does Orthodoxy consider? etc.) because the Orthodox Church lacks a 'Magisterium' and questions must be answered from ancient tradition and related to current conditions and modes of thought, but here goes:

Does Orthodoxy hold that every homosexual is responsible for being in an abnormal "psychological and biological" state?

No.

Does Orthodoxy consider that the condition of being homosexual, in and of itself and apart from any homosexual act, is "a curse" and "a deadly sin"?

No.

What does Orthodoxy teach is the spiritual consequence of being homosexual?

It is a Cross to be borne with courage and total reliance upon the grace of God to assist one to live in complete chastity, i.e. it is no different from the struggle God calls all unmarried persons to.

How does Orthodoxy consider that a homosexual can avoid what would otherwise be the necessary spiritual consequences of this curse?

First, I would not call it a curse per se. But we avoid the spiritual consequences of our fallen human nature by cooperating with the grace of God through prayer, Scripture and other spiritual reading, frequent reception of the Mysteries of Confession and Holy Communion, and availing ourselves of the help of others (Spiritual Father, brothers and sisters in the Faith, S.A. or other 12 Step Groups, etc.)

Can a "non-practicing" homosexual be an Orthodox Christian?

Yes. But you will find that any human being can be an Orthodox Christian, even those who practice various sins. You probably mean a practicing Orthodox Christian or a communicant. The answer to that is, of course, yes.

Is the teaching of Orthodoxy [....] compatible with the pronouncements of various Catholic bodies (including the NCCB, I believe)?

Yes.

Fr David Straut

Many thanks for Fr. David's sensitive and comprehensive responses, which are most helpful.

This leaves us to ponder: Was the Greek Orthodox priest mis- quoted? Mis-translated? Mistaken in his pronouncement?

Does anyone know of a more authoritative pronouncement from the Church of Greece on this subject?

Here's a not entirely related anecdote:

In the Tsar's time, divorce in the Russian Empire was possible only if the Tsar himself granted the divorce in the specific case. That, naturally, made divorce completely unobtainable for the bulk of the population.

Well, I knew a priest who is dead these ten years but who was ordained around 1930 and was serving in Eastern Poland. He was happily attending a patronal feast in another parish. The festivities were going nicely when all of a sudden a man whom my friend did not know but who was "feeling no pain" loudly accosted the host pastor with the demand that the host priest should marry a horse to a cow. The host priest tried to brush this off, but the loud-mouth wasn't having any; he began shouting even louder, successfully attracting the attention of everyone at the feast.

The priest-victim made the mistake of asking just how the loud-mouth thought that a priest could marry a horse to a cow.

The triumphant response from the loud-mouth was: IF YOU COULD MARRY MY WIFE TO THAT MAN OVER THERE, YOU CAN MARRY A HORSE TO A COW!

The Inter-war Polish government was secularist, and had legalized divorce, but most people still did not believe that divorce was possible.

Fr. Serge

I can understand how a priest would say that. Many people don't consider the "inclination" to be homosexuality. When the term "homosexuality" is used, many people take that to mean that homosexual acts have been committed. Perhaps the reporter should have followed up by asking about 'same-sex attraction not acted upon'.

Fr. Serge,

That's interesting. If divorce is allowed within Orthodoxy (which it is), then should secular, governmental powers like the Tsar be allowed to control what seems to my poor little mind to be the Church's rightful arena? I know that that's nothing new...but does that mean it's OK? An honest inquiry.

Alexis

Alexis,

The Czar was not, and will not be, a secular government power. He was, and will be again, the anointed of God, the Orthodox Emperor, the heir Of King David and Solomon, the Divinely appointed Protector of God's Holy Church. Czardom is a microcosm on Earth of Heaven above.

Alexandr