www.byzcath.org Forums News & Events Church News NAME FOR UKRAINAIN CHURCH

Dear John Two Lungs,

I guess you can call it the "Parma-Plus" Church if you really want to be all that American!

I know that you and the Administrator here are pushing for an American Patriarchate . . .

But there is still an unwritten rule in the East that a Patriarchate can only be established at an Apostolic Centre, where there is a tradition that an Apostle visited and where a Christian centre developed.

This is why Rome won't grant a patriarchate to the Kyivan Church - it is part of the disagreement with Moscow since Moscow believes that it, and not Kyiv, is the bearer of the Apostolic tradition of St Andrew (when the Kyivan Metropolitans moved northwards to escape the attacks from the Mongols etc.).

Sorry, but don't shoot the messenger here . . .

Alex

Dear Klyros Leader,

The traditional title of the Primate of the Kyivan Church has always been: Metropolitan of Kyiv, Halych and all Rus' - at least from the time of St Peter Mohyla.

Our patriarch, should he be recognized by Rome (and I'm STILL not holding my breath, sorry) should simply be called "Patriarch of Kyiv, Halych and all Rus'-Ukraine."

There are some others Ruses that would rather not be included in that Patriarchate today . . .

So let's take it slow and not be "Rus-ing" into things.

The bishops have to be sensitive to the people when coming up with these names.

They do pay the bills, you know. . .

Alex

With the Patriarch's katedra in the Cathedral of St Josaphat, I assume?

Andrij

Dear Andrij,

Yes, that would really make the Orthodox happy!

Alex

Well it has been spoken from on High that I am wrong, so reply deleted.

Dear David,

Remember that comment I once made about you being close to the Latins?

Didn't you deny that? But actions can speak louder than words . . .

We are all one Church, to be sure. But we belong to the Church ONLY through our membership in the Particular Church that we are in.

Otherwise, we would need dual membership, membership in the local, Particular Church AND then some sort of membership in the "universal Church."

Anyway, what I simply meant to say was that you are wrong . . .

Alex

KL, I'm glad you noticed he was off also!

Anyways, Kyiv can also use St. Andrew (depite the fact we do have his apostolic lineage, not moscow, historically) Look at the Patriarch of Antioch, he also claims apostolic lineage from Peter, not only Rome!

Dear Ukipatr,

Pope John Paul II himself has said that the tradition of St Andrew can be drawn upon by more than one Church. The Scots themselves in their 'Declaration of Ardbroath' said that their descendants came from Scythia which is why St Andrew is their patron as well.

But the politics of it is that Moscow claims sole rights to St Andrew and has historically seen Kyiv as having lost the Eastern Slavic primacy to it.

The ROC Metropolitan of Kyiv always crowns the incoming Patriarch of Moscow as the representative of the ancient Chief See of Rus'.

But only to the Moscow Patriarch is the title given, "of all Rus'."

A further problem is to recognize a Ukrainian Catholic Patriarchate whose jurisdiction extends to Kyiv.

This is something no one has yet mentioned. Rome sees our Church as based in Western Ukraine. His Beatitude Lubomyr is connected to Lviv and Galicia only, in the Vatican's reckoning, even though it was an Orthodox Metropolitan of Kyiv who signed the Union of Brest in 1596.

Again, I'm just presenting the view from the Vatican, which is different from our own.

Alex

Dear Alex:

I agree that our contemplated "Ukrainian" Patriarch should probably not have Rus' included in his title. My only point was that we should NOT cut out the "Halych" part.


Dear ukipatr:

It's my job to notice when people are singing flat. You also raise an excelent point about the Partiarch of Antioch claiming lineage from Peter. This is in line with the Eastern view that all bishops derive their spiritual authority from Peter and the rest of the apostles. Where our Bishop, Metropolitan or Patriarch is, there is Peter.


Dear David:

I'm truly disappointed by your (of all people)shying away from an argument. Isn't intellectual discussion the reason why we're all here?


Yours,

kl

kl,
Yes, intellectual discussion is the reason why we're here, at least why most of us are here....


But.....

I believe that it is wise for an individual to realize when there is a topic that, how can I say it, hits too close to the bone to be only an intellectual discussion.

As you have seen (I hope) I can carry on such a discussion. But I know there are topics that I get emotional about and/or I am sensitive about. I believe it is best that I stay out of those topics so as not to act uncharitable or cause harm to others.

Do you not agree that this is the correct course of action in such a situation?

I should have stayed out of the discussion all together but I let my heart get ahead of my head for a minute.


In Christ,
David

Dear David:

Fair points, of course. Just don't be a stranger. This mutual admiration society between Alex, ukipart and I can be interesting for only so long.

Yours,

kl

Krylos,

I had only two comments;

one is to Lauro, we are already one church.

second, I don't think the name of the church should be too over reaching.

I also have a question ukipatr says that Roman Catholics took your churches name? Who in the Roman Catholic Church is called the Ukrainain Greek Catholic Church? or is that not your Church's offical name?


In Christ,
David

Firstly, the title "Kiev and Galicia" was the title for the Orthodox until the early 1990, when it was switched to "Kiev and All Ukraine". Currently, the title "of Galicia" is given to either a Metropolitan or Archbishop in Galicia itself, such as Lviv or Ternopil. Personally, I feel that when Patriarch Lubomyr moves to the capital of Ukraine, he should leave a Metropolitan in Lviv, who would carry the title "Lviv and Galicia".

Also, remember that Metropolitan Athanasius of Lviv had the title "of Russia" at the end, as it appears on the title pages of his Epistle Book and Archieratikon. Cool, huh?

Regarding the name, it appears that we need two different names: one for the diaspora and one for Ukraine. In Ukraine, Ukrainian Greek Catholic works and is equivalent to Ukrainian Orthodox (kind of). Kyivan Catholic will not work in Ukraine because of its Ukrainian acronym. In the diaspora, who knows?

Daniil

And with the even physical violence amongst the now four Orthodox factions outside of communion with Rome (the UAOC has had some kind of a splinter faction break off), it seems from the recent Ukrainian national TV piece on Patriarch Lubomyr that the Greek Catholics may now have some credibility which has been lost amongst the warring Orthodox factions. Another curve in the road.

DavidB,
You misunbderstood me, until 1991 the Ukrainain Greek Catholic Church was known as the Ukrainian Catholic Church and The Roman Catholics were the Poles. The Poles took the title of Ukrainain Catholic Church forcing the "uniates" to be called Greek Catholic, a title that was made up by an Austo-Hungarian Maria Teresa.

Dont think that everything is fine and dandy with the Roman Catholics in Ukraine, we have as many problems with them as we do with The Russian Orthodox.

By the way, it sucks that we can celebrate a liturgy with non-Ukrainians of a different Rite but cannot celebrate with our own brother of the same tradition!