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C^ABA ICYCY XPUCTY!
Etnick,
Assuming you are speaking of the Archangel, they are gender neutral.

Humbly yours,
Mykhayl

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I'm new to this forum, but let me just say that by 'ethnic' I mean a parish that is primarily about and for one ethnic group. I believe that is a heresy (philatism - a fancy word for racism).

I know that the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese considers one of its primary functions the advancement of "universal hellenism" whatever that is.

And whatever it is, who cares. Culture is a learned thing, and not being greek (or russian, or serbian, or arabic, or romanian, or ukrainian, etc...) I have a culture I'm already a part of. One that needs Orthodox Christianity.

Ethnic parishes can only be sustained by immigration.

Once they actually receive converts, they either change, or die.

I'll happily be proven wrong, but I don't think I will be.

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Reverend Father,
Birds of a feather will stick together. What heresy do birds commit? I am still awaiting for someone to come up with communal examples.
Being of the second, third, fourth, fifth and even sixth generation of ethnic Americans you can no longer flash inferiority accusations giving complexes so the foreigners will huddle under baskets. We are as relevant as any other social, economic or fraternal groups. The rest of you may be the ones with prejudice.
What has America given us to build on? Volunteerism yes, so we like to make and sale pyrohy (dumpling pockets). Equality ok, we hold parish meetings so the clergy has to answer. Why would you prefer us to teach our children to make peeps out of pipe cleaners rather than batiqueing colored eggs? Why would you prefer us welcoming Santa rather than the Epoch Saint Nicholas to our Christmas celebrations? Why should we bless pets and forget our paschas (Paschal foods)? Why is tandem chanting of the Scripture anti-American when one language will almost inevitably be English, or Spanish?
Stop clanging sabers and tell us what WE do heretically? Not what one baba (granny) here did or a good o boy there said but communal celebrations of ethnicity that is so offensive. Is it that in Pittsburgh the �hunkies� decorate their churches with foliage and the people wear green for Pentecost while we don�t do it on March 17th (March 4 Julian)? What?

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Originally Posted by Prester John
I'm new to this forum, but let me just say that by 'ethnic' I mean a parish that is primarily about and for one ethnic group. I believe that is a heresy (philatism - a fancy word for racism).

I know that the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese considers one of its primary functions the advancement of "universal hellenism" whatever that is.

And whatever it is, who cares. Culture is a learned thing, and not being greek (or russian, or serbian, or arabic, or romanian, or ukrainian, etc...) I have a culture I'm already a part of. One that needs Orthodox Christianity.

Dear Father John,

Bless....

Quote
Ethnic parishes can only be sustained by immigration.

Once they actually receive converts, they either change, or die.

I'll happily be proven wrong, but I don't think I will be.

Does that mean not celebrating any of the holiday traditions which Mikhayl responded to? These and other ethnic traditions, are so beautiful in a country that has little tradition of its own. Isn't that the reason which you play the beautiful music of the bagpipes, and why you have introduced them into some services? I think that is beautiful, and I have always been moved by their music, whether at parades or at funerals...and surely, bagpipes were not invented on these shores!! wink

In the Greek tradition, for instance, on New Year's Day, we attend church, cut the Vasilopita, both at home and in church, and celebrate the day like a holiday, rather than a day to nurse hangovers like our non-ethnic American counterparts...

Infact, I have found that non-ethnic Americans (like part of my extended family and many of our parishioners by marriage) just soak up these traditions, and are glad to be around ethnic groups that have them, and on occassion, to also adapt some of them, because they are so often sorely lacking in any sense of community and identity of their own.

Ofcourse, we Americans do have one national holiday of religious significance and tradition that we all hold dear, and which unites us as a people, and that is Thanksgiving. That is why, in the Greek Archdiocese, economy is granted to break the fast on that day in which the foods we eat are so symbolic of the identity of the day.

Just some humble thoughts....

Respectfully,
In Christ,
Alice

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I'm new to this forum, but let me just say that by 'ethnic' I mean a parish that is primarily about and for one ethnic group. I believe that is a heresy (philatism - a fancy word for racism).

From your remark above I am wondering just how familar you are with history. Throughout history there have always been multi-lingual and multi-cultural empires.

For example, in what is now Ukraine, there are the descendents of Greek colonists on the Black Sea. Thus, the MP has parishes for them where the liturgy is celebrated in Greek which is the the ancestoral language of the people.

In many parts of the world there are colonies of Armenians which have existed for centuries and the liturgy is celebrated in their liturgical language and their ancestral language has been maintained through many generations in this diaspora. Yet by your definition these are "ethnic" parishes and should not be permitted.

In the Austrian Empire in Bukovyna, the province was split between Romanian speakers and Ukrainian speakers. They had their own parishes. Should they have been forced to celebrate in German, the official language of the Austrian Empire in their part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire?

In Argentina, I believe a study was completed on a colony of originally English settlers who maintained their ancestral language and churches throughout multiple generations. What about Volks Deustch who before WW2 were all through Eastern Europe for centuries maintaining their ancestral language with their own churches.

Should the remnants of Greek speakers left in modern day Turkey be forced to celebrate the Divine Liturgy in modern Turkish? Are the few remaining parishes "ethnic" parishes?

There was a funeral my parents attended recently at which 5th generation Ukrainian-Canadians were present and all were members of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of Canada.

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Originally Posted by Mykhayl
The Liturgy needs to be a part of contemporary Life not a Sunday school bible study. TV is teaching our youth how they are expected to live...We can write letters to the networks and add a petition in the Liturgy so that our children and those who are influenced by electronic airway icons are protected from entertainment directed by the evil one.

Wonderful ideal, Mykhayl!

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Ah well... Culture's great, really... I love it... The dancing, the feasting, the merrymaking, the joy and the laughter. If we'd stick to culture and ethnicity in that form, and by all means, it really works fine for those who are just afraid of being ostracized for not being Arab, Serb, Greek, or Russian.

By the ways, I've heard that most Ukrainian bishops accept non-Ukrainian speaking Catholics into service in their churches. Is this true? No one mentioned learning how to speak Slavonic, but yes, they've graciously accepted non-Ukes. How true is this?


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Originally Posted by Mykhayl
How about reaching out to them convert spouses by singing a Protestant hymn before or after "Sluzhba" (Liturg aka Mass)? That is how they teach orthodoxy, but would that be a "Latinization"?

Maybe if the words are orthodox and the music isn't too wild...!

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Originally Posted by Pustinik
But we are all one in Christ, celebrating what He has done for us. We do not want to forget our ethnic origins - this is our history. We do not, as pointed out in Yuhannon's contribution, to have a heart closed to others. In celebrating our own origins, we acknowledge that God has been and continues to work in all cultures and times - reaching out to each person as he or she is - in Divine Love.

I like this comment. I wish everybody could experience the traditional Slavic hospitality.

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Originally Posted by Latin Catholic
Indeed, the Eastern Catholic Churches are just as Catholic as the Latin Church. For historical reasons, the Eastern Catholic Churches have not been able to take part in missionary activities on the same scale as the Latin Church, but this does not mean that the Eastern Catholic Churches do not have the same missionary mandate as the Latin Church. The Latin Church is not the "default option" for someone who wishes to be baptized into the Catholic Church. Therefore, the Eastern Catholic Churches in the United States and elsewhere have the same responsibility as the Latin Church to reach out to the unchurched and the unbaptized and to bring them (back) to the true faith. As the stewards of a great liturgical, theological and spiritual tradition, the Eastern Catholic Churches have so much to offer to so many people!

This, I think, best sums up what I perceive my vocation to be. Thanks for expressing it so well!

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Originally Posted by Collin Nunis
By the ways, I've heard that most Ukrainian bishops accept non-Ukrainian speaking Catholics into service in their churches. Is this true? No one mentioned learning how to speak Slavonic, but yes, they've graciously accepted non-Ukes. How true is this?

Well, they accepted me (thanks be to God!) biggrin

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Originally Posted by Kahless
That is one of the most bigoted posts I had the displeasure to read on this forum. The Ukrainian "nationalists" as you call them (that is post WWII immigrants who fled from communist-occupied Ukraine), and there are quite a few at my parish, have no problem with me or my family and have been extremely kind to us and I'm a Hungarian. They treat us and the other non-Ukrainians at my parish like we are one of them. I sometimes even speak Russian to them and they pleasently talk back to me in Russian too!

May I say that, from what you say, you are in the minority. I mean, if you're going to start speaking Russian to patriotic Ukrainians, on the whole it will not work. I have been to Ukraine, and I've even tried it here. Each time, I was shunned. The kindest and most gentle of people refuse to speak with me as soon as I utter one 'spasiba'.

Originally Posted by Kahless
Just because you set up camp on a foriegn country dosen't mean you have to stop speaking your own language so the one in a hundred local who gets curious and stops by on a sunday can understand what is going on.

Just remember that many 'curous' locals who stop by on Sunday are not just passing by a museum piece, but are looking for God too.

Originally Posted by Kahless
Another thing too, my priest is not a Ukrainian, his family comes from the balkans actually, and grew up Latin Catholic and became a Ukrainian priest and the Ukrainans adore him. And he was ordained for the eparchy years ago. But he learned Ukrainian, as all seminarians for the Ukrainian Catholic Church should.

So, do all Roman Catholic seminarians have to learn Italian?

Ukrainian immigrants who come to the United States are contributing to the building up of American culture and society, and they should continue to do so. This includes contributing with their beautiful language. But, they must also learn English to be able to live within society, and not in a ghetto. They, in turn, will evangelize the poor and needy around them.

I have many non-Ukrainian friends who love our Church more than most Ukrainians do, and I'd rather go elsewhere than see Ukrainian forced on them. I am of Ukrainian origin, and never cease telling them to be as Italian, Chinese, African American, etc., as possible. It brings greater color to my life and that of the parish. I want them there because I love them. I want their faith and love for our Church to inspire those who have a so-called 'birthright' to love their Church even more. It should be done out of deep love and respect, not coercion. As for priests and seminarians, they should learn Ukrainian IF and/or WHEN it is needed, not on principle! We are not in Ukraine, we are in America!
If we're in a parish where many people speak Ukrainian ONLY (e.g. recent immigrants), then it's useful if the priest can speak with them. But there's always the danger of ghetto mentality (I've seen and lived it). If a priest speaks English only, I don't know...maybe it will help immigrants learn English more quickly (and vice-versa, if one moved to another country).

P.S. This applies to all other cultures, Eastern or Western.

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I have many non-Ukrainian friends who love our Church more than most Ukrainians do, and I'd rather go elsewhere than see Ukrainian forced on them. I

How on earth are you able to judge how much Ukrainians love their church. Or that your many non-Ukrainians friends love the church more.
All I cansay is that Thank God I am Ukrainian Orthodox and live in a country like Canada where we can freely practise our religion. No forces "Ukrainian" on anyone. We want to be Ukrainian-Canadians if if we didn't we could leave the church and go elsewhere.

Last edited by Halia12; 06/13/08 08:13 PM.
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Originally Posted by Halia12
How on earth are you able to judge how much Ukrainians love their church. Or that your many non-Ukrainians friends love the church more.
All I cansay is that Thank God I am Ukrainian Orthodox and live in a country like Canada where we can freely practise our religion. No forces "Ukrainian" on anyone. We want to be Ukrainian-Canadians if if we didn't we could leave the church and go elsewhere.

You're right. I can't judge everybody. This has only been my experience. I've travelled a bit, and noticed how quickly our parishes fill up for Pascha and Christmas. In many cases, these faithful come twice a year, and begin to dictate how the services should be. When they don't see or hear things as they knew it, they become defensive. Whereas those who attend faithfully every Sunday are brushed aside.

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Originally Posted by Byzantine Latino
All I cansay is that Thank God I am Ukrainian Orthodox and live in a country like Canada where we can freely practise our religion. No forces "Ukrainian" on anyone. We want to be Ukrainian-Canadians if if we didn't we could leave the church and go elsewhere.

Please remember that I'm not arguing against freedom at all, but simply against the many instances of exclusion I have witnessed because of un-Christian attitudes. Chief amongt these is the notion that one must be Ukrainian in order to worship in Ukrainian churches. I am not Ukrainian (by birth), but I want to worship in a church whose mother is in Ukraine. So does that exclude me?

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