www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Ukrainian Churches

Does this development mean that the "Patriarchal Russians" now recognize the "canonical" status of an autocephalous Ukrainian Orthodox Church, separate from the Moscow Pariarchate?

The Ukrainian Church in America is not an autocephalous Church, but rather a Church for Ukrainian Americans and Canadians under the omophor of the Ecumenical Patriarch, similar to the ACROD. It is fully canonical, and is not attempting in any way to set up a rival church to the canonical UOC-MP.

There is NO autocephalous Ukrainian Orthodox Church. Only an autonomous Church under the omophor of Metropolitan Volodymyr Sabodan.

Alexandr

Thank you for the clarification.

The Kyiv Patriarchate, despite having a Patriarch, Synod, Hierarchy, monasteries, seminaries, and upwards of 3,000 parishes, does not exist? Reminds me of the days when the US government was denying the existence of the People's Republic of China. I wonder if Filaret enjoys ping-pong.

Fr. Serge

According to government statistics, the Kyivan Patriarchate also has more active members than any other church in Ukraine. It is the most popular church in term of members. The best part is that the UO-Kyivan Patriarch is my grandfather's second cousin (both born in Ivane Puste, Halychyna / Galicia) which would make him my.....??

I.F.

There are also two Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church (UAOC) jurisdictions in Ukraine, one under the omophor of Metropolitan +Mefodiy and another under Archbishop +Ihor. The Kyivan Patriarchate (KP) also now has several parishes in the US as does the UAOC.

Patriarch Lubomyr has frequent communication with the leadership of both churches, and clergy of each have spoken at UGCC functions and vice versa. As I understand there has even been some discussion of sharing educational facilities.

Interesting to see the OCA and ROCOR now both as members of SCOBA and thus de facto in communion, something I did not think I would live to see.

Just a point of clarification, ROCOR is not a member of SCOBA. They are in communion with each other though.

While ROCOR is now an "autonomous" relation of the MP, and the MP is now a member of SCOBA, I agree that strictly speaking ROCOR is not yet a member. ROCOR certainly is now in communion with the MP and by extension the OCA via the MP communion as you say.

So basically now the OCA and ROCOR enjoy similar status as autonomous parts of the MP? Article 13 of the Act of Canonical Communion states that ROCOR receives her chrism from the MP. This is a significant ecclesiastical and liturgical act.

The Orthodox Church in America is autocephalous, not autonomous, and the Tomos of Autocephaly notes that the Orthodox Church in America has the right to consecrate the Holy Chrism.

The Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia is fully a part of the Russian Church (Moscow Patriarchate) and therefore receives Holy Chrism from the Patriarch of Moscow. In the discussion which led up to the restoration of Communion the Patriarchate offered autonomy, but the Russian Orthodox Church of Russia preferred to remain part of the Patriarchate.

Fr. Serge

I'm perplexed by Ukrainian Church statistics. Both the UOC-MP and UOC-KP have produced surveys, claims and counter-claims as to who has more faithful.

That having been said, I do notice that while the UOC-KP claims to have the most faithful, it is the UOC-MP that has, far and away, the largest numbers of priests, monks and nuns, seemingly more than the UGCC, UOC-KP and UAOC combined. Why is this so?

I've read in many places that a lot of Ukrainians don't particularly care where they go to Church, as long as it is "Orthodox" -- which can be defined so loosely as to include even the UGCC. Is that correct?

Second cousin, twice removed.

Find the common ancestor, then step down each side until you reach one of the cousins in question. Grandchild =1st cousin, great-grandchild = 2d cousin, etc. Then keep counting down the other side, with each generation being a "removed."

So your father's cousin (grandchildren of the same person)is your first cousin, once removed.

hawkk

. The Moscow Patriarchate is well funded by non-parishioners. Many parishes receive some or all of their funding from the Moscow Patriarch, some from businesses, and others from questionable sources. Oil rich Russia can buy anything it wants when a barrel of crude is $150.

Also, the Soviet minded bureaucrats of Eastern Ukraine will always favor a MP Church over ANY other. Three hundred years of brutal repression, of which the Soviet era was worst has created a mindset which can't think independently. It is difficult for non MP churches to simply get a lot of land on which to build a church, never mind the actual cost of construction.

Finally, the statistical numbers the MP church providess are questionable. Everyone knows that active church attendance diminishes exponentially from West to Eastern Ukraine due to the fact that the Eastern regions were part of Soviet Ukraine for a longer period of time than was Western Ukraine. Religion in Eastern Ukraine was much more brutally suppressed and fundamentally the vast majority of the people were de-churched. Going to church perhaps one or twice per year is the norm in Eastern Ukraine, whereas in Western Ukraine people engage more actively in their church. Fundamentally, the MP lists the number of people who may go to church once per year and who largely do not a have any allegiance. This theory is easily tested by simply visiting Ukrainian Orthodox - KP and Greek Catholic churches in Western Europe. The UOKP and Greek Catholic churches are full of new �migr�s EVERY Sunday, whereas the Russian Orthodox Churches (where UO-MP) would attend are devoid of recent Ukrainian �migr�s. Russian Orthodox Churches are the most beautiful in Western Europe but sadly are mostly 'museum pieces'. The theory can also be tested in Carpatho-Ukraine (remember the 1939 declaration) where largely Orthodox believers have been granted the right to retain churches which belonged to Greek Catholics prior to World War 2 - Even when Greek Catholics outnumber the Orthodox.

In short, don't believe the UO-MP statistics regarding parishoners which are mostly wishful thinking.

I.F.

Thanks Dowchak !

I used your theory and have concluded he is my relative so distantly removed, that perhaps I shouldn't mention it anymore.

Thanks,

I.F.

Jean,

Grand dad's second cousin isn't that far removed! (except in the US, where everyone outside first cousins are unknown to many people)

Strictly following the genealogical lines, a grandfather's second cousin is one's relative 8 times removed and a grandfather's first cousin is 6 times removed.

Normally speaking, he is not one's "second cousin" but a "granduncle" or "grandaunt," as the case may be.

The common ancestors of one's gandfather and his second cousin are one's great, great, great, grandparents.

Amado

No need to disavow your relatives. Much better to organize a family reunion!

Fr. Serge

Thanks for the explanation. But where do all those UOC-MP monks and priests come from? That is what puzzles me.

Each step is a "degree of consanguinity" . . .

also, one's grandfather's second cousin would be six degrees, not 8: father, grandfather, great grandfather, great great grandfather, (now going down) first cousin, thrice removed, second cousin, twice removed.

One's grandfather's second cousin, wtice removed could be a fourth cousin (grandfather's second cousin's grandchild).

hawk

This thread seems to wander stangely between matters canonical
and matters genealogical.

On matters canonical I am very simple-minded.

Is Ukraine part of Russia? No.

Is Estonia? No.

Does the Patriarch of Moscow have any claim to authority
in either place?

No. He is Russian. They're not. What business is it of his?

Oh, there are ethnic Russians settled in these countries by
Tsarist and Communist imperialists? OK. Let Moscow appoint
exarchs for them and otherwise butt out.

Edmac

Agreed.


Your comments confirm this.


Is the Ukraine part of Turkey? No.


Is Estonia part of Turkey? No.


Yes he does. He is not a Russian. He is an ethnic Estonian. The Russian Church is the canonical Church of these areas. Defense of the Church against schismatics is central to the role of the synod. It most definitely IS his "business".



The Orthodox Christians in these areas, whether Great Russian, Little Russian, Estonian, Lithuanian, Congolese or Martian, all fall under the spiritual omophor of the Russian Orthodox Church.

Let Constantinople "butt out" of what is not it's concern or prerogative.

Alexandr

Really, because no one in Estonia considers the MP to be an "ethnic Estonian". There is a difference between ethnicity and citizenship. He may have been born in Estonia during the inter-war period when Estonia was free from Russian oppression and thus would be an Estonian citizen by law.
I believe he is the descendent of Baltic Germans although the family by intermarriage became culturally identified with the Russians. Thus, he is Russian by ethnicity although of Baltic German descent. There are other examples of Baltic Germans who intermarried and became Russian Orthodox in religion and Russian by ethnicity and culture in succeeding genrerations.
I believe his wife however was Russian by ethnicity and culture with no Baltic german connection.

C/IABA ICYCY XPI/ICTY !
Edmac,
Nicely put. Note in the subsequent quote from Slavipodvizhnik �Little Russian�. There you have it. It is not canonical. It is not genealogical. It is Slavophile, or it would have been �Rus� Minor�.
Mykhayl

The position of the Ecumenical Patriarch is such that his legitimate concerns are not confined to Turkey - indeed, there was no such country for the first thousand years or so of the Ecumenical Patriarchate's existence.

Nobody asserts that Estonia, or Ukraine, or Finland or such places have any connection with Turkey (although Ukraine had its problems with Turkey a few centuries ago - memorialized by, among other things, Repin's hilarious painting of the Cossacks drawing up a letter to the Sultan). This, however, did not preclude Ukraine from remembering that she was evangelized from Constantinople and therefore appealing to Constantinople in time of need. Nor did this prevent Estonia and Finland from making similar appeals.

The Ecumenical Patriarchate has never claimed ecclesiastical jurisdiction on the dubious basis of armed invasion by Turkey - to this day there are still a few Eastern Orthodox parishes of the Patriarchate of Antioch functioning precariously in southern Turkey.

The Moscow Patriarchate, on the other hand, has frequently used Soviet control of various places - including Estonia - to impose her jurisdiction in those places.

Fr. Serge

C/IABA ICYCY XPI/ICTY !
A very interesting development of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church of the Orthodox Faith of Kyiv Rus�:

http://www.catholica.com.au/andrewstake1/079_ak_210608.php

thanks to "carson daniel lauffer" who posted this on #292515 of this Forum. I thought it should be repeated here so those so interested on this thread would not miss the advantage of its report and insight.

What happens with the Ukrainian Autocephalous Church under "Patriarch Moisey"?

http://www.soborna.org/

Despite being uncanonical, their missionary work is more succesful than that of the canonical churches (at least these people are doing something to spread the faith). They have communities in Oaxaca, Ecatepec and Veracruz.

There's another Ukrainian Church that separated from Moisey:

http://www.uaocamerica.org/

Are the Canonical Ukrainian jurisdictions trying to reach the members of this Churches (those that are honest)?

Ukrainians have been in South and Central America, and even in Spanish speakinng North America for some time.

Paraguay Ukrainian Orthodox Church:

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://bp3.blogger.com/_3kPfc8k_yMM/RfXlmeGDBWI/AAAAAAAAAG0/k6Dps1Ks010/s400/DSCN2568.JPG&imgrefurl=http://yasnajazz.blogspot.com/2007/03/fram-dpto-de-itapa-paraguay.html&h=400&w=300&sz=31&hl=en&start=2&um=1&tbnid=jVUz44JYw6L-TM:&tbnh=124&tbnw=93&prev=/images%3Fq%3Ducrania%2Bparaguay%2Biglesia%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26rlz%3D1T4ADBF_enUS278US279


Ukrainian Orthodox Church in Ecuador:

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://img.forministry.com/5/50/502DA8CE-96D3-4C50-9279DBEC56D9FDAC/C881EEA0-97BC-4BF3-B4FD5F6D8D6D0857.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.ortodoxa.net/HistoriaMisionVision/Noticiasdel2006.dsp&h=531&w=709&sz=456&hl=en&start=18&um=1&tbnid=A9a0miGah2MQtM:&tbnh=105&tbnw=140&prev=/images%3Fq%3Ducrania%2Becuador%2Biglesia%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26rlz%3D1T4ADBF_enUS278US279%26sa%3DG

Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church in Argentina

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.arteyfotografia.com.ar/contenido/objetos/mini_500/3390_1188777942318934.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.arteyfotografia.com.ar/3390/fotos/35491/&h=400&w=500&sz=57&hl=en&start=97&um=1&tbnid=GcUXZmZFWTAw1M:&tbnh=104&tbnw=130&prev=/images%3Fq%3Ducrania%2Bargentinia%2Biglesia%26start%3D80%26ndsp%3D20%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26rlz%3D1T4ADBF_enUS278US279%26sa%3DN

Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church in Argentina

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.geocities.com/pro_ortodoxia/12/imagen/ing_0007.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.geocities.com/pro_ortodoxia/12/UCRANIANA.htm&h=384&w=288&sz=46&hl=en&start=2&um=1&tbnid=iPn4oXTn1wLSvM:&tbnh=123&tbnw=92&prev=/images%3Fq%3Ducrania%2Bargentinia%2Biglesia%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26rlz%3D1T4ADBF_enUS278US279%26sa%3DG

Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church Argentina

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.apostoles.gov.ar/turismo/base/galeria/Fotos/previas/31.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.apostoles.gov.ar/turismo/base/galeria/DEFAULT.ASP%3Ffoto%3D31&h=384&w=512&sz=44&hl=en&start=46&um=1&tbnid=4p8NGHsqk0MG7M:&tbnh=98&tbnw=131&prev=/images%3Fq%3Ducrania%2Bargentinia%2Biglesia%26start%3D40%26ndsp%3D20%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26rlz%3D1T4ADBF_enUS278US279%26sa%3DN

Florida

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.vozcatolica.org/A04/UkranianGreekCardinalAtAssumptionOfTheBVM_069.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.vozcatolica.org/A04/ucraniano.htm&h=432&w=367&sz=278&hl=en&start=12&um=1&tbnid=DLxMA1Hf_Z7t_M:&tbnh=126&tbnw=107&prev=/images%3Fq%3Ducrania%2Bargentinia%2Biglesia%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26rlz%3D1T4ADBF_enUS278US279%26sa%3DG


I hope this information helps.

I.F.

Слава Ісусу Христу!

A picture is worth a thousand words. Thanks for the essay.

Don't forget Brazil:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainians_of_Brazil

I.F.

The article claims that 85% of the 400,000 Ukrainians in Brazil belong to the UGCC. However, the UGCC's own figures give only a consistent 161,500-162,000 in Brazil for the period 2000-2008.

I am under the impression that, whenever there is a conflict between Russia and another entity -- be it Rome, or Ukraine, or Estonia, or Finland, or Constantinople -- the knee-jerk reaction of many of my fellow Catholics is to say: "oh, the Russians are involved in this conflict... it must be because of their fault!" "Don't give the Russkies a hearing... they'll just brainwash you with propaganda!" It is a rage that I, as a Catholic, find to be as incomprehensible as it is unjust. Thankfully, the Vatican does not share it.

I think this attitude -- which is nothing more than a relic of the Cold War -- only worsens everything, and is certainly not according to the mind of the Holy See, which, for its own good reasons, has been very diplomatic with Russia. And, as I see too often, this kind of attitude towards the Russians only ends up in anger against the Vatican for daring to continue dialogue with such "barbarians" and "unreformed KGB agents"

I also find it hypocritical that we Catholics so often complain about how the secular media portrays us, and yet so uncritically accept the negative verdict of the secular Western media on Russia and Russian Orthodoxy. Consistency, my friends!

Nor is it just to portray the Russians as some sort of lumbering army of disguised Reds out to swamp the West. I, too, used to believe the same thing, back in my hardline days reading Gruner's rants in Catholic Tradi-land. You know... Russia really is unreformed, its still controlled by the KGB, Alexis Ridiger is just a very good KGB agent, it's all about Soviet and Russian imperialism, etc. etc. Thank God I now believe that Russians actually have souls.

When everything has been said, the following must be asked:

1) If the Russians are nothing more than power-hungry imperialists, then what are we to say about their hundreds of thousands of martyrs, who suffered and died at the hands of the Bolsheviks? Were they fakes too? Certainly, some Catholics speak and act as if all the Orthodox in Russia where willing tools of the KGB and that only Catholics suffered martyrdom. It is just too dishonest an attitude, and makes the lover of truth in me go mad. The Roman Catholic Church never had to undergo martrydom on so vast a scale! Who are we to judge them? And remember: if some Russian Orthodox collaborated with the KGB -- an act condemned by the MP in 2000 -- it was only after Stalin had inflicted unbelievable horrors on countless Orthodox believers. Who are we to condemn them? The Chinese, Polish and Czech Catholic Churches also cracked and had their collaborators with Communism. And yet, precisely because of their circumstances, we refuse to condemn them. Why can't we extend the same fairness to the Russians, who actually had far more to suffer?

I even find that the Russians have refused to canonize any Orthodox marytr who, even if eventually martyred, had first cracked under KGB torture and confessed to anything. I find it to be a remarkable severity in view of the fact that two of our own Servants of God, Walter Ciszek and Cardinal Midszenty, cracked under torture and recorded confessions. Of course, we Catholics do not hold it against Fr. Ciszek and Cardinal Mindszenty that they gave in, since they did so under unbearable torture...

2) If -- as is often claimed -- the Moscow Patriarchate is in Estonia and Ukraine only for imperialistic reasons, then why have most Orthodox in Estonia remained faithful to the MP, while most Ukrainian monastics are in the MP? Surely that says something. Obviously, more than force of arms is involved here. Why can't we acknowledge this?

I think that much of the anger that the MP seems to show is also due to the fact that nobody seems to want to give them a hearing. It is as if they are always prejudged, always condemned in advance. Granted that they are guilty of many things: can they not at least have a hearing in the court of Catholic public opinion? Why are we so kind to Anglicans and to Evangelicals but not to the Russians, with whom we share so much more?

I will end this post with a story about the Serbs (another people who are always condemned in advance, with little or no hearing. No wonder the Russians and Serbs gravitate to each other so much)

http://www.catholic.net/RCC/News/Time_Mag/popetime.html

At lunch one day, some of the Pope's advisers started talking about the violence of the Serbs in Bosnia. The Pope interjected: "And the Croats - you think they're angels?"

The late Holy Father had enough wisdom to realize that the fault for that conflict was not all on the Serbian side. May we realize that in the conflicts between Russia and some other entity, the same can be said...

Dear AsianPilgrim,

I have forwarded you a private response.

I.F.

Perhaps you can contact the Ukrainian Catholic Church in Brazil to better understand the statistics. I'm just not sure what the numbers represent.

I.F.

Hello, Jean Francois

I never got your private message. Pls resend it. Thanks!

Hi Mexican,

Here is web site which includes an interactive chat room for "Comunidad Hispano-Ucrainiana". They may be able to give you better information about the churches in Latin America. They actually have a link to Mozambique Africa where there is a strong Ukrainian community also.

http://www.ucrania.es.tl/

Here are some more pictures of churches in
UGCC and Ukrainian Orthodox Churches in Brazil:

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.pessoal.cefetpr.br/ucrania/imagem/pinheirinho.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.pessoal.cefetpr.br/ucrania/igrejas.html&h=384&w=512&sz=64&hl=en&start=1&um=1&tbnid=wJFOj7fkX-1nFM:&tbnh=98&tbnw=131&prev=/images%3Fq%3Digreja%2Bcatolica%2Bucraniana%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26rlz%3D1T4ADBF_enUS278US279%26sa%3DG

I.F.

What are Ukrainians doing in Mozambique????

I thought these "South American/Mexican" Orthodox connected with Ukrainians were actually a group that left the Catholic Church and since this uncanonical Ukrainian jurisdiction asked no questions or demanded few changes or required changes, the former RC group was taken in.

Halia, probably +80% of the Ukrainian Orthodox in the diaspoara (USA, Canada, etc...) are ex-UGCC members who made the switch because of heavy handed problems they were having with the Roman catholic majority (ie: married priests). Most of the native born Ukrainian Orthodox immigrants joined the Russian Orthodox Church.

About the UGCC in Portugal:

http://ukraina-em-portugal.blogspot.com/

http://www.ukremigrantpt.ipsys.net/index_files/Page5779.htm

Want to learn about Ukrainians in Mozambique then please see this site. They had some nice pictures of the 'Feast of Jordan' with a UGCC priest.

Ukrainians in Africa (Portugese speaking):
http://ucrania-mozambique.blogspot.com/

Ukrainians in Spain:
http://casaucrania.blogspot.com/
(They have great radio programs which mix Ukrainian, Spanish, English, Italian, and other music - just log on).

I'm still searching for Ukrainian Churches in Mexico.

I.F.