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Wow. sounds like prayers are in order for parish councillors! Y'all are so involved int the necessary earthly duties that it is easy to forget heaven.

Not to say that churches never make innovations, but I do wonder further if these inclusive changes are a middle class thing; a need to make everyone feel part of and rooted in church. Somehow I don't these changes would even be thought of in a more rooted parish (overseas, rural or workingclass.)

I don't think the girls are going to become adult members just because they are "handmaidens." Do most altar boys remain in the church as adults? In any case, that shouldn't be the reason to stay in church,but rather because you feel called by Christ. So, what we need to do is be sure that young people hear Christ call and mae that connection between Christ's call and the need for the sacraments.

I wonder if this whole issue is the same misconception about "participation" in the Liturgy that seems to plague our Latin parishes.

Somehow the idea that "participation" means one must be involved in the area around the altar or one must have a role that allows for moving around with the liturgical ministers during the Liturgy. Somehow it is thought that one is not "participating" if one is seriously focused on the liturgical action and trying to absorb all of the prayers, readings, and actions without leaving one's place.

Personally, I can fully participate in the readings, for example, by closing my eyes and allowing the Word of God to "flow" over my "chapped soul" and soak in to moisten my arid being. Personally I can absorb the prayers if I again close my eyes so as not to be distracted when they are bein recited so that I can make them my own.

But, then, I prepare for the Liturgy as for the most important activity in which I will be involved this side of eternity. I don't have to be moving at all--God lifts me into His Divine Sacred Action, gently reminding me that He has chosen me to be His eyes to seek out, His ears to listen (to others), His voice to encourage, His hands to work, His arms to embrace (others), and His legs to carry me wherever He needs His presence to be. I come to the Liturgy to be reminded of who I am because He has called me, consecrated me with chrism, and set me out on pilgrimage to be His messenger. Sometimes I come so "beat up" by the world that I'm in danger of forgetting all that. But He refreshes my soul and sends me back out into the trenches of this world to witness to the fact that He came here so that we could not only be like Him but we're to draw others to Him by our example.

This whole idea that we've got to robe every child and involve every adult in some kind of action is simply--IMHO--an extension of our frenetic pace in this age. We've forgotten the phrase, "Be still and know that I am God."

In Christ,

BOB

This whole idea that we've got to robe every child and involve every adult in some kind of action is simply--IMHO--an extension of our frenetic pace in this age. We've forgotten the phrase, "Be still and know that I am God."

Well put, Bob.

I guess I just need to sit back and decompress before I get the bends. I shouldn't be worrying over every last detail of what goes on at church. As others pointed out, no canons are violated and the faith isn't altered.

I understand where you are coming from, Etnick. My thrust was more toward the people who think we've got to find so much innovation to get people involved with the Liturgy. Basically, I think it's one of faulty and poor catechesis. I get upset seeing young girls dressed in clerical vestments, too, since it makes young boys a little reticent to do a "girl" thing while giving them the sad impression that there is no difference between the sexes. We are complimentary, not identical--and viva la difference!

We tend to think that people going through the motions will pick up the Faith and make it their own personal thing. But it doesn't work that way. That only makes more people who are on the surface. Sometimes it does harm, too. Young people who are poorly trained or catechised can come away with the idea that "there is nothing special about this." So they get the idea that sloppy liturgical and in-church behavior is the norm and okay.

At the risk of being deemed proud, I'm going to start another thread about my own synopsis of the Liturgy and how I teach it to the people I train to be Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion and Lectors of the Word. I firmly believe that unless we have some inkling about what constitutes the "Big Picture" we'll always think we need to get more frenetic activity going in the time when we are involved in the experience of the Liturgy. It seems to me that we forget that it's God Who is doing the work here and we are privileged to be involved with Him as He unfolds the trememdous Mystery that is Christ and His Saving Work among, for, and with us.

In Christ,

BOB

Years ago, I read a pamphlet given to my Father in the 1940's titled, "Little Johny Altar Boy" (iirc) when he became one.

It claimed that during the (western) entrance, an altar boy hit another over the head with the cross.

Both would become Pope in time . . .



hawk

Bob, I think you hit the nail on the head. If we were to learn to prepare for the liturgy and soak it in then then parents could teach there children to do the same and there wouldn't be so much need to "be included."

I was reading an old interview with a Bishop (don't remember who, but he was Russian Orthodox)who noted that the ideal (not always possible in our world)way to prepare for Sunday DL is to cease worldly activities from shortly before Saturday Vespers and spend the time reading, reflecting, praying,etc. until after DL. Sunday should be a day of no worldly work (sounds very jewish.)He felt that we should also cease work shortly before Vespers the day before a feast day and do the same. Of course that's virtually impossible for most of us to do, but I imagine that if we could spend that much time preparing for Sunday DL and feast days as well as honoring the sabbath day along with our children that many "innovations" would never come to mind.

Okay, so I guess some altar boys do remain very involved in the church as adults!

indigo:

I like to read at least the seven penitential psalms when possible the night before the Liturgy and have always liked to use the Byzantine prayers of preparation before the Liturgy. I get a lot of "why do you do that?" "We're not required to do that anymore."

In Christ,

BOB

Ah, but we are to pray the prayers before receiving Holy Communion during the time after Holy Vespers.

In fact, some bishops have forbidden any parish entertainment on Saturdays after Vespers.

They have their parish events like dinner dances on Friday evenings, and then give the rationale that after five occasions are actually Saturday events, and so serve meat.

Other parishes try to have the parish events on Sunday afternoons or on Saturday afternoons just before Vespers so that the parishioners can attend Vespers too.

Bob and Elizabeth Maria, thanks for the reminder of the 7 penitential psalms and the prayers of preparation. Bob, I'm sure you must gain much through reading those prayers. In spite of those who don't understand, you're probably planting a seed in someone's heart when you tell them your practice. That person could be the teenager standing next to the parent asking you why do you bother with that old fashioned rule!

There has never been much emphasis placed on them in my parish, but now that I think of it, we never have events on Saturday evening.I have decided that if I have a choice of weekend events I'll go for Friday or Sunday. But, in the case of a major event,like a wedding or going-away party

Oh,another Saturday evening activity; I've been going to the Metropolitan Cantor Institute website to learn Sunday's tone and that has been extremely helpful. That could easily be a family actitivy that most children and teenagers would enjoy.

Peace,
Indigo

indigo:

I keep a couple Bibles marked for use as prayer books. I put paper clips on the page edges to mark the Psalms so I can move between them without "thumbing" through the pages--I find that breaks the prayer concentration. I also mark the Communion Preparation Epistle and Gospel.

As for the young person, I would hope to be an example. But with the last forty years of "Jesus is my brother; I don't have to worry about anything" one wonders.

BOB

I read these posts a while back and I just can't help but comment. I know almost everyone will disagree with me. But here goes:

1. I am not sure why we are all so against alter girls. Are girls somehow unclean or less than boys? I don't consider my daughter to be such.

2. Is it concern with tradition? I am not for any tradition that keeps my daughter from doing things in church unless there is a good reason for that tradition.

3. So what's the reason? I know, "we don't want them to want to be priests." If this is a reason for banning active forms of participation, it seems like a rather slippery slope to ending all female interaction:

3a. Some churches have adoration. We should immediately make rules preventing women from participating. Praying before the Sacrament might make them want to be priests.

3b. Some churches allow female readers. Heresy! This must be ended. It all starts with reading an epistle, but then they want to read the Gospel too! We must destoy all parishes where this anathema of women readers has occurred!

3c. Some churches allow women on their welcome committees. Ahhh! This must be ended, sharing the gospel with others might make a woman want to proclaim it in a homily.

3d. Some churches allow women to be catechists. This must be ended! Allowing women to teach the faith might let them confuse themselves with priests and bishops.

3e. Some churches allow women to pray quietly to themselves. Noooo! This is far too similar to the priest who, according to some on the forum, should be praying certain prayers silently.

3f. Some churches allow women to enter the church building! What!?! This must be stopped. The first step to a woman wanting to be a priest is letting her in the door. If she can't come in then she won't know what she's missing.

3g. Some churches allow women to be members of their congregation. I recommend we end this. Without women members, we will have no more worries that they will want to be priests.

Anyway, I guess my point is that I think alter girls aren't such a bad thing. Not any worse than letting women be members or enter the building. I hope you guys found some humor in my list. I am not trying to be offensive. But, I think the list makes my point.

Felix

I disagree with you about altar girls and female priests but I did find some humor in the list

Fair enough. That was my secondary goal.