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#292914 06/24/08 04:01 AM
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As the feast of Saints Peter and Paul approaches, it will mark one year since the RDL has been mandatory in all BCA parishes.

I was wondering if people here could share what has happened at their parishes in the year since the RDL has been implemented.

Have vocations increased?

Has attendance gone up?

Have the number of females attending and becoming active increased because of the inclusive language?

Have the number of missions started gone up?

Has singing increased?

Thanks in advance.

Monomakh

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The clergy of the Archeparchy of Pittsburgh blame the Revised Divine Liturgy for the precipitous decline in attendance in the past year. It was the mostly unspoken and forbidden topic at the clergy days back in May.

Have vocations increased?
No.

Has attendance gone up?
No. Quite the opposite. People have walked away in droves.

Have the number of females attending and becoming active increased because of the inclusive language?
A number of people who have walked away have stated that the so-called �inclusive language� is the reason they left. It is not, however, the only reason.

Have the number of missions started gone up?
The underlying theme of the clergy days seemed to be planning for the closure of parishes and the dissolution of the BCC.

Has singing increased?
The clergy cannot sing the new music. Even the bishops realize this now. But I do not think they care. Praise the Lord, Rome is speaking. It may be too little too late but it is something.

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I'd separate vocations (diaconate / priesthood) into a completely different box. I shall reserve my opinion about how vocations are being handled, and just say one hand is beckoning for new people and the other is firmly in a pocket.

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Originally Posted by John Damascene
The clergy of the Archeparchy of Pittsburgh blame the Revised Divine Liturgy for the precipitous decline in attendance in the past year. It was the mostly unspoken and forbidden topic at the clergy days back in May.

Have vocations increased?
No.

Has attendance gone up?
No. Quite the opposite. People have walked away in droves.

Have the number of females attending and becoming active increased because of the inclusive language?
A number of people who have walked away have stated that the so-called �inclusive language� is the reason they left. It is not, however, the only reason.

Have the number of missions started gone up?
The underlying theme of the clergy days seemed to be planning for the closure of parishes and the dissolution of the BCC.

Has singing increased?
The clergy cannot sing the new music. Even the bishops realize this now. But I do not think they care. Praise the Lord, Rome is speaking. It may be too little too late but it is something.

How very sad. The RDL mandate was like pushing a self-destruct button. frown

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"The underlying theme of the clergy days seemed to be planning for the closure of parishes and the dissolution of the BCC."


I seriously hope this never happens. I still have a bit of a soft spot for the Rusyn Greek Catholic Church, and really don't want to see my parents buried from the Latin rite that they have never belonged to.

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Have the number of missions started gone up?
The underlying theme of the clergy days seemed to be planning for the closure of parishes and the dissolution of the BCC.

For real? What will happen to us, will we become Latin Rite Catholics, or Orthodox?

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At our church:

Attendance has gone down (including myself).

Singing has decreased and many times it is a cantor solo.

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doesn't everyone have this when changes are made? the changes can be brilliant and they would still be changes. you would not know what to chant; so decreased singing and participation and a level of communal discomfort is just built right in.

just think, anglicans and the '79 prayerbook controversy. now if you are a latin rite catholic, the '79 prayerbook looks like mana from heaven, but at the time groups left the episcopal church over it. 30 years later, it just seems silly.

i am not sure 1yr is enough time to make a judgment about the changes.

i am also not sure that people leaving is a good measure of the quality of a translation either. when people leave a parish over issues like that, i always find it a little sketchy. it makes me think there is a prior failure to integrate the community into a living parish (unless blocs of families are getting up and moving together to another place).

that said, the BCCA is facing a serious challenge to its future in terms of numbers. if americans are becoming catholic, then for the most part they are going to join the latin church. if they are attracted to the divine liturgy, then most likely they are going to become orthodox. it is the rare person who is strongly in favor of the papacy AND wants john chrysostom's liturgy on a regular basis.

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Originally Posted by invocation
the changes can be brilliant and they would still be changes.
I suppose that would depend upon whether the person considers gender neutered language and odd rubrics to be brilliant changes. eek

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Originally Posted by Recluse
Originally Posted by invocation
the changes can be brilliant and they would still be changes.
I suppose that would depend upon whether the person considers gender neutered language and odd rubrics to be brilliant changes. eek

that was my point. i don't think 1 yr provides anyone with enough distance to know whether or not these are translations which will endure, or what is an odd rubric and what is just clashing on ears that are used to a previous translation.

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Originally Posted by invocation
i don't think 1 yr provides anyone with enough distance to know whether or not these are translations which will endure,
On the contrary: I think it is plenty of time. Some of the fruits (or lack thereof) are already evident.

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Originally Posted by Recluse
Originally Posted by invocation
i don't think 1 yr provides anyone with enough distance to know whether or not these are translations which will endure,
On the contrary: I think it is plenty of time. Some of the fruits (or lack thereof) are already evident.

The vast majority of us did not need more than five minutes to know what an awful failure the RDL is.

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I do not have the time or emotional energy to get into another argument with the anti-RDL crowd. So, anything they write in response to my post will be ignored by me regardless of my opinion of their statements. That being said, I felt someone ought to say they thought Invocation has a reasonable opinion. So, "I think Invocation has a reasonable opinion." I know he, and I, will be outnumbered quickly by anti-RDL posters. But I think that's the nature of the forum and not fully reflective of the general population. I just write because I think the people who have strong opinions are getting too carried away and hurting the spirituality of otherwise oblivious individuals. I could potentially see this damage coming from both sides of the RDL argument, but it seems most damaging from the anti-RDL side due to their insistence that a great destruction of the Church or serious heresy is afoot. Opinions I cannot concur with and which I find spiritually damaging to others.

I would, however, commend all those on both sides of this discussion if they are current members of the BCA or at least another Catholic jurisdiction and their opinions are based upon a genuine love for the Catholic Faith and Church. While I may disagree with the anti-RDL group's opinions and tactics, I must acknowledge that their love, if a correct love, is to be admired. I have no comment for those outside the Church as I do not think it would be useful or appropriate for me to comment on such persons in the context of this post.

Last edited by Felix; 06/26/08 11:09 PM.
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Quote
But I think that's the nature of the forum and not fully reflective of the general population.

Felix, things must be different in Texas because here in Ohio the reverse is true. Most people abhor the RDL. If you would have had the opportunity to experience the Red Book, you would understand. That's the one unfortunate fact in this whole argument -- the people who have experienced the Red Book want nothing less. If the use of the Red Book would have been wide-spread, we would have many more people upset.

The Red Book is the GOLD STANDARD. Anything else, is well, less. Until you experience the Red Book, you really can't comment one way or the other. That's what all the anti-RDL posters are comparing this new liturgy to. I know if you could experience the Red Book, you would love it too. I guarantee it. And then you would be in our camp.

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I'm going to respond as one with formal training in Theology and as a man on a journey East. The current translation of the DL was translated from the earliest Greek translations that we have available. This is in accord with the norm for theological translations, we do not hold third generations translations of Holy Scripture (i.e. a new translation from a German translation which was from early source documents) as valid so why would a DL translation from Church Slavonic in to English be valid. There were also problems with the original translation into Slavonic.

As mentioned before there will always be people upset with changes whether for the good or bad. At my parish we have had at least one person that I know of leave our parish because she did not like the de-Latinization, including the new translation and the work to make the church feel more Eastern.

My only wish is that all of the Byzantine Rite Churches in the United States would have come together to work on a common translation of the Liturgy rather than just the Ruthenian.

I pray that we not get so caught up on words on a page, but how the words and the meaning behind the words resonate in our heart. I would take a guess to say that Our Holy Father Among the Saints John Chyrsostom is looking down from Heaven laughing at us for arguing over a trivial tranlsation.

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