www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Russia And Georgia At War In South Ossetia

The problem, I think, is that borders do not necessarily coincide with "nations" and "peoples". Due to the complicated and chequered history of the past centuries, most national boundaries are the product of capricious political decisions, instead of reflecting the natural historical and cultural boundaries of certain peoples.

Much of contemporary bloodshed in Africa, for example, is related to the fact that almost all African countries today have boundaries that reflect the caprices and politics of their respective colonial masters rather than the historic extent of the major African empires, tribes and peoples. Sudan and Nigeria -- both with an Arab Muslim north and a Christian / pagan south, are prime examples.

Same thing with the Middle East, Caucasus, and much of Eastern Europe.

I have often wondered if perhaps what the world needs is a sort of "rectification of borders" process, by which boundaries will be redrawn in order to reflect the actual extent of nations and peoples, ensuring that as few disaffected minorities remain inside what these see as "foreign" borders as possible.

South Ossetia was once part of North Ossetia. These people, who are ethnically different from the Georgians, want to be reunited with North Ossetia, not Georgia. South Ossetia feels more affinity towards the Russians, who came to protect them from the Georgian army. The Georgian army had no business in South Ossetia, except to commit genocide there and to secure the oil rights. Incidentally, the Albanian Terrorists in Kosovo also want to secure the oil rights and have committed genocide against the Serbian Orthodox. We in the west are not being told the truth.

The Israelis want the oil from South and North Ossetia.

Many of the people in South Ossetia are Orthodox Christians, and these people have reported that Blackwater merceneries financed by the US Government were killing the civilians by shooting them in the head and by tossing grenades in homes. Thousands were killed by the brutal Georgian army who had no intention of taking any prisoners alive. It was GENOCIDE.

The Georgians are a mixture of Christians and Muslims. The barbarious acts of the Georgian Army against South Ossetia is not surprising when you consider that the American Black Ops group, Blackwater, were the military advisors involved in training the Georgian forces along with the brutal Israeli advisors.

Your comment about Canada makes no sense whatsoever, Yuhannon.

By playing his stupid bluff in order to secure foreign oil rights by force, the President of Georgia has endangered his own people. If he had minded his own business, and not listened to US and Israeli military advisors who wanted to use South Ossetia for the oil line, the thousands of civilians in Odessia who were brutally murdered by Blackwater would still be alive.

Do a google search and find the truth, as you will not find the true story represented in US or UK news. Patrick Buchanan tells the truth but there is more information available on line about what really happened.

Villainizing the Russian Army and not looking at the atrocious deeds that the Blackwater Georgian forces committed is very one-sided.

AMM,

I don't disagree! But the fact that we may be catching up doesn't mean that what I said about the Russian military isn't historically true, or that I somehow cannot say it without risking being a hypocrite just because I am an American citizen. Obviously.

Alexis

I found this today, Some of the images are not for the faint hearted.
georgianwar pics [navoine.ru]

We all risk being hypocrites if we do what we accuse other people of, that is the whole problem here with our approach.

An interesting article.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/9d0280e8-6b2a-11dd-b613-0000779fd18c.html

This August 15 article is very enlightening.

It seems like North and South Ossetia do not want to be a part of Georgia, but that the West wants to force these two very ethnically diverse people to be joined to Georgia.

What I fear and what Russia fears is more genocide of these Ossetian people by US-Blackwater forces.

Here is more supporting documentation:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/aug/15/russia.georgia

Georgia crisis: Medvedev promises to guarantee any vote by rebel states to break with Tbilisi

Ian Traynor, Europe editor

I would highly recommend that Elizabeth Maria and a few others use legitimate sources rather then Russian propaganda. To be frank, once Elizabeth Maria referenced “The People’s Voice” as a source she lost all credibility in my mind. [“The People’s Voice” seriously pushes the idea that 9/11 was an inside job and the Twin Towers and Pentagon were destroyed by the American military on the direct orders of President Bush.]

Was Russia upset at a fledgling democracy on their boarders? Yes, of course. They want to rebuild the Russian Empire and either absorb their former territories or at least put friendly governments (to them) in them. That is why they spent months planning an invasion and provoked a response by Georgia (these are demonstrable facts).

Elizabeth Maria (and a few others) might consider that the Ossetians are overwhelmingly Muslim. Russia seeded some ethnic Russians there as well as gave them Russian passports to stir the pot. Georgia is certainly not a perfect country but compare to Russia it is innocent.

As far as Elizabeth Maria’s anti-Semitism, it is not acceptable. Blaming the Jews and Blackwater for something Russia did is buying into Putin’s lie, and drinking his Kool-Aid.

A bit off topic, perhaps. But my RC friends keep telling me John Paul II consecrated Russia to the immaculate heart of Mary. That now there will be peace in the world. What am I missing here? I don't get it. Where's the peace?

So, Elizabeth Maria, if a certain group wants to break away from the nation, then it is their right? And the nation must sit back and do nothing?

I'm a Southerner and all, but even *I* don't think that makes a ton of sense.

It isn't the inherent right of every little ethnic group to dismantle their own government and form a new state? Russia obviously doesn't think so with Chechnya, does it? And weren't you just talking about the Kosovans and Serbians? I'm confused by your line of reasoning. When is it OK and when is it not, in your opinion?

AMM,

I'm not, and never have been, involved with the US military.

Alexis

ByzanTN,

As I'm sure you're well aware, not all of us are, or have ever been convinced that Russia has been consecrated to the Immaculate Heart as the Theotokos requested.

Alexis

Yes, I have both heard and read that some do not consider the consecration to have been made. But if one examines the current state of anything but peace in the world, then the evidence suggests you are correct.

Dear Admin,

Would that you had read Mr. Buchanan's article and the other articles rather than finding one source in which to label me falsely.

I am not anti-semitic. In fact, have been very careful not to cite any source that even appears to be anti-semitic. I have only been citing pro-Israel sources, which want the pipeline to continue. Furthermore, I do not know of one anti-semitic source which I have cited. Yet, you know that this war involves Israeli intelligence agents and military advisors to Georgia. That is very understandable since Israel has invested billions of dollars in aid to establish this pipe-line by their own admissions.

I expect an apology. Your calling me anti-semitic is very uncharitable. And here we are preparing to receive Holy Communion tomorrow? I do not appreciate the name calling that has taken place in this thread, when I have been trying to be truthful and have spent much time trying to find credible sources. Why is it that I have once again been singled out?

I only listed The Peoples Voice because of their article on depleted uranium. I did not scan that site for everything they have listed. I was not even aware of their 9-11 beliefs, until you pointed it out. Just because I cite one article, does not mean that I believe everything they write, and besides, only closed-minded people would refuse to listen to a source that made one mistake. Witness the retractions which the New York Times and the Los Angeles Times have to make. Yet, they are considered to be credible by many people.

Nevertheless, Georgia is wrong to have brokered a deal with the foreign country of Israel involving South Ossetia without their consent. Committing genocide by killing thousands of South Ossetians in order to secure passage of that oil pipe, as the Blackwater-led Georgian have done, is wrong.

How many South Ossetians are Orthodox Christians? How many thousands of Georgians are Muslims? Remember that these regions are ethnically diverse. Remember that all of these areas are ethnically diverse.

In Christ,
Elizabeth

Again, here is one pro-Israel source that was previously quoted which does show Israeli involvement. Read the entire article and you will see that this media source recommends continual Israeli involvement to protect the Jewish businessmen in Georgia, and that they are concerned about future pograms.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1011298.html

Last update - 13:15 14/08/2008

Georgia president denies Israel halted military aid due to war

By Anshel Pfeffer, Haaretz Correspondent

<snip>

Georgia President Saakashvili said: <snip>

Shlomo Elizabeth Maria,


I have to say that in your posts you have stepped very close to the edge. I myself am anti-Zionist, but definately defend Jews, since I have a number of anti-Zionist Jewish relatives. I think where people may think that you are on the line with anti-Semitism is your comment that (t)he Georgian President, when the ...kering a deal with Israel to supply oil. You have never explained to any of us the reason for this statement, and it seemed to imply an anti-Semitic bent. If we can understand why you said this maybe more would be cleared up.

Poosh BaShlomo,
Yuhannon

Dear Yuhannon:

I am just paraphrasing Israel news sources where they state that the U.S. trained Georgian President and his government is working with the Israelis to secure oil which is being shipped to Israel per financial arrangements negotiated with them.

Israelis are known for their fearless and effective ways of fighting. I will not go into detail. They have trained the Georgian army well.

In fact, here is one very informative Israeli news source out of many. Please read the entire article as it is copyrighted and I am only allowed to quote a few lines as documentation.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1011298.html
Last update - 13:15 14/08/2008

Georgia president denies Israel halted military aid due to war

By Anshel Pfeffer, Haaretz Correspondent (Israeli News)

<snip>

Georgia President Saakashvili said: <snip>


Notice how the Israelis boast that the "feisty" Georgian Army strength is due "Israeli military training." With the Blackwater presence along with Israeli feistiness, no wonder thousands of South Ossetian Orthodox men, women, and children were killed by the Georgian Army. It was genocide. Russia was right to defend them when they asked for help.


Incidentally, contrary to what the ADMIN here has stated, the people of South Ossetia are largely Orthodox Christians, with only a tiny percentage of muslims, but there are also muslims in Georgia.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/aug/08/georgia.russia4?gusrc=rss&feed=global

Q&A: South Ossetia dispute

* Helen Womack and Mark Tran
* guardian.co.uk,
* Tuesday August 12 2008 16:35 BST



Fox News also said that the people from South Ossetia are Orthodox Christians, but I guess Fox is not considered to be a reliable source on this forum.

In addition, the MP also knows that both Georgians and South Ossetian are Orthodox and has called on both sides to stop the fighting. However, the violence committed in South Ossetia by U.S. Mercenaries was genocide and at least one U.S. body was recovered. I heard this over a local radio station that uses CNN.

To show that I am not biased, here is an article from Catholic Online, which quotes from the MP in urging a cease fire:

Catholic Online

http://www.catholic.org/international/international_story.php?id=28873