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From a google search:

Blackwater; South Ossetia;

Look what I found: the smoking bullet

A picture of U.S. Military training of Georgian Soldiers prior to the recent attack on South Ossetia by those same Georgian soldiers.

Americans were lied to. Our U.S. Government under Bush has been training the Georgians to attack the South Ossetian citizens. Russia has every right to be upset and concerned.

http://www.defendamerica.mil/photoessays/sep2002/p090402a1.html

Indeed, this picture is worth a thousand words.

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And what does this morning's news say about the Russian withdrawal from Georgia after Russia agreed to withdraw its troops

Russian troops draw closer to Georgian capital [news.bbc.co.uk]

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With all the talk about Russian aggression, please realize that it was Georgia who started this war about a week ago, and that it was Georgia who has been planning this war for perhaps a year or more, with millions of dollars in specialized training and in military aid from the U.S. Military and also the Israelis.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/aug/14/russia.georgia

Quote
This is a tale of US expansion not Russian aggression

War in the Caucasus is as much the product of an American imperial drive as local conflicts. It's likely to be a taste of things to come

Seumas Milne

The Guardian, Thursday August 14 2008

<snip>

Quote
You'd be hard put to recall after all the fury over Russian aggression that it was actually Georgia that began the war last Thursday with an all-out attack on South Ossetia to "restore constitutional order" - in other words, rule over an area it has never controlled since the collapse of the Soviet Union. Nor, amid the outrage at Russian bombardments, have there been much more than the briefest references to the atrocities committed by Georgian forces against citizens it claims as its own in South Ossetia's capital Tskhinvali. Several hundred civilians were killed there by Georgian troops last week, along with Russian soldiers operating under a 1990s peace agreement: "I saw a Georgian soldier throw a grenade into a basement full of women and children," one Tskhinvali resident, Saramat Tskhovredov, told reporters on Tuesday.

If the South Ossetians had been prepared for this war of genocide from Georgia, then there may not have been all this bloodshed. These civilians were totally unprepared. And remember that these South Ossetians are not muslims, but are mostly Orthodox Christians.

Look at this video clip from South Ossetia and please realize that the Georgians used a church site -- an Orthodox Church site to stage the war ... knowing that the villagers would not dare to shoot down their own village church. This shows the callousness of the Georgian President who should be impeached and excommunicated by the Georgian Patriarch.

I know that the ADMIN does not want any Russian films, but my husband looked at this film and noticed the American-built Military 6x6 truck that was being driven by the Georgians and was captured. My husband drove one of those tanks when he was in the military.

Only look at the 4th videoclip down:

http://dandelionsalad.wordpress.com...-campaign-evidence-of-georgian-genocide/

Please do not look at any other part of this site as I do not recommend it. There is no violence seen or any vulgarity shown. I only wanted you to see the one videoclip where the Georgian soldiers used the holy church as a staging ground to shoot and kill innocent villagers from underneath the crosses of their village church. How cowardly.

Lord have mercy.

Last edited by Elizabeth Maria; 08/17/08 07:15 AM.
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OLS,

If the Russians pull out of the region, then the highly trained and armed Georgian soldiers will retaliate and massacre more Orthodox Christian Ossetians.

Do you think the Russians are that stupid to leave these people open to genocide?

I am sorry to say this, but I am sick of American deceit and I am praying for the conversion of our President and his men who caused this genocide.

Last edited by Elizabeth Maria; 08/17/08 07:19 AM.
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Shlomo Elizabeth Maria,

You still have not answered the fundemental question, why would the Georgian President be tried for treason for selling oil to Israel (your own words)? Until that question is answered, many here will hold you suspect of being an anti-Semite.

Poosh BaShlomo,
Yuhannon

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Dear Forum Members,

I'm sure the Kremlin is grateful for certain certain forum members reposting 'Soviet Era' propaganda concerning the war in Georgia. The collages of internet 'proof' are both breathtaking and facinating and I'm sure "if you repeat it a 100 times it will become the truth". But repeating it 100 times is not a discussion but rather a propaganda campaign. This liberal Byzantine Chrisitian forum is for discussion not Kremlin propaganda.

Here are several points with sound references which clearly indicate why the Russian Federation is the Aggressor and not Georgia. Further there is a near complete global agreement on this issue:

Must be a Helinsi Accord supporter to join NATO:
http://www.nato.int/issues/pfp/index.html

NATO Partner countries:
http://www.nato.int/structur/countries.htm

Serbia wants to joins NATO - Accepts Kosovo:
http://www.nato.int/docu/update/2007/09-september/e0905a.html


(1) Russia and Georgia are signatories of the Helinski Accord and as such must repect the rights of their minorities. Almost ALL signatories have minority population whom they must respect based on the charter's content.

(2) Any infringement of the rights of minorities can be immediately made public through a variety of international venues. Abkhazians and Ossetians would be no exception and internatinal peacekeepers could be made available if there was any real threat to the minorities. (BTW - Canadian prime minister Lester B. Pearson was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize for the idea of using the military for peace purposes.)

(2) Russia and Georgia are both signatories of NATO's Partners for Peace Program as are most European Countries. As members of this program, they have have to respect the internationally recognized borders of each country. Georgia's international border includes the provinces of Abkhazia and Ossettia and Georgia has a right to control them based on international law - not Russia.

Georgia has the obligation and right to protect it's minorities which it has an outstanding reputation for doing so in in the rest of the republic, including Ossetians and Abkhazians.

(3) NATO's Partners for Peace Program also includes Alliance Partners such as Australia, New Zealand, South Korea, and Japan. Other NATO friendly countries such as Israel are offered some integration. However, given these countries geographical location, it is not possible to include them in a European-North American Alliance. They are nonetheless strategic partners and they all frequently train and have military exercises together.

Jewish Israel has had large scale training exercises with Islamic Turkey. Islamic Turkey has had large scale training exercises with Roman Catholic Italy, (etc...). Israels has the full support of NATO in assisting the Alliance in any way possible, including training states such as Georgia which belongs to the Partners for Peace Program. There is nothing wrong with Isralies training Georgians according to the NATO Alliance, unless someone is anti-Semetic and feels that Jews and Orthodox Christians can't be allies. The Soviet Union and now Russia have mastered the art of both formenting anti-Semitism and using alledged anti-Semitism to detract from the real issue which is Russian Imperialism. Ukrainians and Isralies have come to learn this and have never been on better terms in spite of the Russian Federation significant attempts to have them fight with each other.

(4) Certain posters obsession with blaming the USA for the Georgian war is absurd at best. The Ukrainian president Victor Yuschenko was recently given the rare honor of addressing a joint House of the Canadian Parliament (Commons, Senate, Supreme Court, and Governor General). He asked that the government lead the cause for Ukraine's entry into the NATO alliance. The Canadian prime minister agreed and has been Ukraine' best advocate for entering the alliance. Poland for it's part has not stopped DEMANDING in a very vocal manner that Ukraine and Georgia be admitted to the alliance. All other NATO partners have been encouraging Ukraine and Georgia to enter the alliance. Why then is desire on the part of some posters to repeat Soviet....errr.... I mean Russian Federation propaganda ?

'Somewhat Christian' Canada regularly trains on Canadian Soil with Partners from all of the former Warsaw Pact countries - Except Russia which has decided to take a more 'homegrown approach to it's integration.

I'm not sure why certain posters find it incredulous to see Americans training Georgians. I can post pictures on this web site of Canadians training Georgians also. The is true for the UK, Germany, France and other member states.

(5) Private contractors are permitted under the NATO agreement to perform a variety of services within the parameters of the Alliance's rules. So far there has been no proof of any USA contractors in Georgia or the Russian sponsored breakaway provinces other than what some questionable news sources have published / posted. Even it there were, this is not illegal under NATO rules, which Georgia and Russian agred to abide by.

(6) Pat Buchanan may be a Roman Catholic and may reflect the views of some North American Catholics. His internet post has nothing to do with Catholicism, but rather with his own personal philosophy of American Isolationalism. The last time the USA took this position against the wishes of Canada and Europe was during WW2. It took Pearl Harbor to wake American up to the perils of Isolationism. His internet article is so flawed that no respectable news service would print it. That's because it's not based on any facts - it's just someone's opinion - who has not be very relevant in American politics for some time.

More importantly, VERY CATHOLIC POLAND and VERY CATHOLIC LITHUANIA have been the strongest and most vocal supporters of relative ORTHODOX Georgia and Ukraine's bid to enter the military alliance.

The fact is that Russia infiltrated in early 1990's these two provinces with Russian KGB agents in an attempt to truncate Georgia so that the nation could not serve as a conduit for oil from the Caspian Sea area which is thought to have more carbon fuels than than the Arabian Gulf area.

Russia has been providing military assistance to a very small group of people in the separatist provinces in direct violation of it's Helsinki and NATO Partnership for Peace agreements. Georgia attempt to take it's own sovereing territory was in no way a violation of it's Helsinki and NATO agreement. Russia's arming these regions on the other hand was a direct violation of both treaties.

Any discussion of genocide in the breakaway provinces either has to be proved - or it's time that the Administrator took some action regarding the propaganda campaign of certain posters. Asking to have the democratically elected Georgian president removed from power is clear Kremlin propaganda.

I.F.

PS: I have been trying not to post.





Last edited by Jean Francois; 08/17/08 06:07 PM.
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Elizabeth Maria (and a few others) might consider that the Ossetians are overwhelmingly Muslim.

Admin, I believe the Ossetians north and south are majority Orthodox, with a substantial Muslim minority. I don't think this is a religious issue though.

I have been, and still am upset about what our foreign policy has done to allow this to happen. The fact that we have put ourselves in a position where we can do very little doesn't excuse what Russia is doing. This article I think helps to explain how this unfolded

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...-flat-tyre-took-the-Caucasus-to-war.html

What I have done today is donate money to the two following organizations

http://www.iocc.org/news/8-11-08georgia.aspx
http://afgeorgia.org/default.aspx

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Dear Brother in Christ, Yuhannon,

If you had taken the time to read just one of the many references which I have cited, especially my last response to you, you would have seen that the Israelis have trained the Georgian soldiers to engage in fierce fighting ... and the fruit is that the Georgians have killed innocent Orthodox Christian men, women, and children, and even set fire to their homes by tossing grenades in them. These Georgian soldiers became mindless killing machines ... This training can cause these soldiers to lose their eternal salvation.

This is why the Georgian President should be tried for war crimes and impeached. He should not have allowed the U.S. and Israeli military advisers to train his soldiers to commit genocide. Orthodox Christian soldiers should never be trained to commit genocide against civilians.

Sorry if my anti-war stance bothers some, but I do not think that war solves any problems, especially the murder of innocent men, women, and children in Orthodox Christian villages.

Today's Gospel talked about this very subject.

We are temples of the Lord. To kill an Orthodox Christian is an offense that cries to heaven, because that act of murder is defiling a Temple of God. When Christians kill other Christians by shooting them in the back of the head and tossing grenades into their homes to kill their babies, this is an atrocity. There is simply no excuse for this behavior.

Originally Posted by Yuhannon
Shlomo Elizabeth Maria,

You still have not answered the fundemental question, why would the Georgian President be tried for treason for selling oil to Israel (your own words)? Until that question is answered, many here will hold you suspect of being an anti-Semite.

Poosh BaShlomo,
Yuhannon


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And of course Elizabeth Maria , the Russians have never committed any atrocities frown

I'm sorry - but the sooner we all realise that none of us know the whole truth about this affair the better.

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And of course OLS, I never said that.

Of course the Russians have committed atrocities, as have the Georgian, U.S. and Israelis who have also engaged in this battle. No side is innocent, so why are people only saying that the Russians are the aggressors, especially when the Georgians started the aggression during the Olympic Games, went in to South Ossetia, and committed genocide against the South Ossetian civilian population during one of the holiest seasons of the year.

O Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy and save all the people in this conflict.

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Dear Elizabeth Maria,

Too bad you can't provide any valid facts to support your posts. I'm sure the Kremlin is pleased with your assistance with their propaganda campaign which you have faithfully supported. I'm surprised that Slavipodvizhik and AsianPilgrim aren't around to assist you - smile smile.


I.F.

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Dear Jean Francois,

I see that you have not quoted from one reputable web site.

And yet on the contrary, I am quoting largely from Pro-ISRAELI (Anti-Russian) news media sites, if you would kindly read my posts.

If people would take the time to look at these references, they would see that I am trying to uncover the truth rather than naively accusing Russia of committing all the acts of aggression.

Go back and look at all the references.

In Christ,
Elizabeth

p.s. Remember that we are in different time zones. It is time to take a nap myself, and excuse myself from all these mindless questions from people who do not care to read and research questions for themselves.

Last edited by Elizabeth Maria; 08/17/08 11:11 PM.
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the smoking bullet?

they are training them for their role in Iraq...not S Ossetia...

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Dear Elizabeth Maria,

Yes we did review your sources and the Soviet Era Kremlin would have been proud of you. I'm sure the current Russian Federation leaders are just as joyful.

Have a good nap. With any luck Slavipodvizhik or AsianPilgrim can take over. smile smile smile

I.F.

Last edited by Jean Francois; 08/17/08 11:25 PM.
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Shlomo Elizabeth Maria,

Quote
Sorry if my anti-war stance bothers some, but I do not think that war solves any problems, especially the murder of innocent men, women, and children in Orthodox Christian villages.

I am glad that you are against the war, my point and the one that many think is anti-Semitic is what you stated on page 6:

The Georgian President, when the facts are fully known, if they ever are, could be tried for treason for brokering a deal with Israel to supply oil.

In my last post I provided a link to that page. This is what many think is either anti-Semitic or very close to the border. So please explain what you ment.

Poosh BaShlomo,
Yuhannon

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