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Originally Posted by ZAROVE
Actually, "Occupired Ireland" wanted to remain part fo the United Kigndom, and modern Loyalists still periodically ad vocaly oppose anythign akin to unification wthh the Republic to the south.

That said, critisism of the UK as not ebign a single Ethnic group, and thus artificial, is a bit cruel. Its not like the United States are a unified ethnic heritage, yet no one woudl be happy to see it disolved.

Shlomo Zarove,

First, the division of Ireland was a way for the Crown to keep up its occupation of Ireland. Most of the Protestants there were transplants from Scotland, and even though I am a ScotNat, I will not let ethnicity interfer with the truth. If you look true Irish Protestants, you will see that they backed the Republic also. Read up on Micheal Collins.

As for Great Britain, having lived there, I can tell you that the only people that call themselves British are the English. America and Americanism are based on an ideal, where as the UK is based on the crown. Britain is also devolving. Right now Both Scotland [scottish.parliament.uk] and Wales [walesassembly.org] have their own parliaments. Cornwall [cornishstannaryparliament.co.uk] has an authorized one. Not only that, but the English are now asking for their own Parliament, because they will soon be the only group that is governed by the National legislature, not a regional one.

Fush BaShlomo,
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Ireland:

Just what it is that the "Loyalists" are loyal to would be a good question.

There is a distinct difference between a multi-national state, such as the USA, Canada, and so on, and an ethnic nation-state, such as France, Poland, Greece and so on. The occupation of "Northern Ireland" violates the integrity of Ireland - there is no such natural entity as "Northern Ireland", and when this artificial statelet was created by the English Parliament, the openly stated goal was to have a province which would include as much territory as possible while simultaneously precluding the possibility of the Irish voting themselves out of the "United Kingdom" and into the Irish Free State (now the Irish Republic). There is nothing "democratic" about this artificial "majority" (which exists, by the way, only in 1.5 counties out of 6 counties).

One would never guess it from the propaganda, but there are, have been, and will be significant Protestant numbers of Irish people, living quite peacefully in the Republic, No one treats them as the English occupiers treat nationally conscious Irish in the occupied counties.

Fr. Serge

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Keep in mind, Serge, that sayign that there is nothign Democratic in the situation is not relaly an argument. Democracy may be the ideal of our age, but it si nto my ideal, and to the others as well as you, what is wrogn with unity under the Crown? THe difficulty seems ot be to me that peopel seem to want to pretend that Unity under the Crown is somehiw itself invalid. What makes that not an Ideal as America was base don its ocnstitution?

The United Kingdomw as not base dupon Ethnic grouping, but it is still a wonderful thing, foudne dby a Scottish King. And the Welsh needn't complain either sicne they begged admission under the riegn of Henry the 8th.

As to Ireland, most of the peopel in Northern Irleand wish to remain part of the United Kingdom, and I see no reaisn for this to change.

Dividign he Untied Kigndom and smilign whle it disintigrates will not be prudent givne the implicaiton of further division and animosity, in an already acronemosu world.

I supportt he United Kigndom as a whole, not as a devolving mess.

In fact, I'd liek to see the COmmonwealth unite into a sort of unity, liek the EU wanted ot be and the US is.


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Zarove, forgive me but your post is inaccurate if you are referring to the Laws in Wales acts of 1535 and 1542, within that paperwork you will find this statement

*the people of the same dominion have and do daily use a speche nothing like ne consonant to the naturall mother tonge used within this Realme" and then declares the intention "utterly to extirpe alle and singular sinister usages and customs" belonging to Wales.*

Quite obviously we were not begging for that at all and the very fact that the language survives to this day pretty much shows you how enthusiastic the Welsh were about accepting the laws of England.

I also think that the commonwealth should be recombined but first we would have to expel England :P




Last edited by DewiMelkite; 09/23/08 03:54 AM.
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DewiMelkite, just how certain are you of my error? It seems that the Anti-English sentiment may be too powerful for soem here ot resist, but England isnt 100% evil and at fault for all that happened wrong on the Isles.


It is also true that your presentation of History is not the only take one can find on the matter.

As I recall, a lawless boarder supplied criminals a way to evade justice and murder and rob at will, and an undefended coast left Wales open to French invasion. Often the Marcher Lords woudl take payment frmt he aforementioend criminals to help them evade justice, and fears of French or Spanish invaion, with the help of a greedy Welsh Marcher, also created soem tensions.

I also seem to recall that Henry the 7th was a Welshman and his rule was seen as far more generosuly recived than his predesseccors, and, although Henry the 8th waned to idenify less wiht the Welsh, he wasnot overly aggressive with them.

Lets not pretend its all one sided witht he english as the Villains.

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Quote
Keep in mind, Serge,

To quote Henry VIII's legitimate wife, Queen Katherine of Aragon (Memory Eternal!), if you do not care to address me properly, you need not trouble to address me at all.

(Father Archimandrite) Serge

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Dear Zarove,

I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you made a simple error by not addressing Father Serge as 'Father'.

However, let this be taken as a warning to all that intentional rudeness to any member of the clergy is unacceptable on this forum.

Alice, Moderator

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Dear All,

I'll resist the temptation to get drawn into the Irish political discussion (it's not a temptation I generally find easy to forego, mind!).

The point about sharia law: if a group of private individuals want to govern certain aspects of their lives by a code outside the general law of the country in which they live, then provided they don't transgress that general law is so doing, then that is fine. The Jewish people have the Beth Din court (which has a long and distinguished history), and we Catholics have our own enormous body of canon law sitting outside the legal systems of the various countries in which we happen to find ourselves.

I think the real issue is when the general law of a particular country is (or may be) discriminatory either in favour of or against a particular belief system. It's not hard to think of examples, ranging from the Islamic countries (where sharia law, or part of it, IS the general law of the land) in which other religions are barely tolerated and certainly barred from proselytising to the militant atheism of, say, China.

And having thus far avoided Irish political commentary, I will toss this coin into the mix: the original constitution of the Irish Free State recognised the "special position of the Holy Catholic and Roman Church as the guardian of the faith professed by the majority of the people" - often regarded by Irish protestants as a declaration of a confessional state (although the constitution did also specifically guarantee freedom of religion).

It's when thinking about matters like this that I remember representing a small protestant group in court proceedings not too long ago (I'm a barrister). One of the issues in the case was the nature of the "rules" by which this group conducted its affairs. I asked the pastor about it, eventually framing the question: "So, pastor, just what is your constitution?" He looked at me, gently smiled...and held up a copy of the New Testament.

Is mise le meas

Craig

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ALICE, due to my work and school schedule, you will have noticed I don't post often. I was unaware he was ordained into the Prietshood, and his username doesn't indicate this fact. I was not attempting to be rude, I was merely addressing him by name.

In the same fashion as others refer to me as Zarove.

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A Chraig, a chara,

If you care to get into an Irish political discussion with your humble servant, be welcome!

Correct, the Free State Constitution did include the mentioned article; it was still in the Bunreacht until relatively recently. But the Catholic Church was not "established" here - which is just as well - and no Irish Taoiseach ever announced that "all I boast of is that we are a Catholic Government for a Catholic people"! I needn't remind you of who said something parallel to that.

One of the elements of the religious mix in this part of the country is, of all things. World War I. Irish Catholics in general were not particularly loyal to the English Crown; Irish Protestants were, in general, much more apt to serve in the British armed forces (quite often as officers). World War I was a massacre on all sides, and made serious inroads into the Irish Protestant population. Since there were those who had relatives in England, or in Scotland, or in the north-east of Ireland, many of them moved in one of those directions.

On the other hand, there were (and still are) some important Protestant families who deliberately decided to remain here, and have continued to flourish. Recently there are significant groups of Protestants among the "new Irish" coming here from various countries.

Every so often in my sermons I also have the habit of indicating the Gospel Book and saying that this is our "Constitution", our fundamental law, which we are not to violate.

Do chun glor De agus onora na hEireann!

An tAth. Brian

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An interesting article appeared on WND today. Hopefully heading it off at the pass, so to speak.

Brand new push in Congress to prevent Shariah invasion
Bill intended to assure citizens they won't be governed by Islam


Congressman Tom Tancredo, R-Colo., introduced a bill to the House of Representatives that seeks to prevent Islam's radical Shariahlaw from gaining a foothold in the U.S. legal system, as it has in other countries.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=76026

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