www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy The Revised Divine Liturgy Abandoned (or discouraged) BC customs

Neither Jack Figel nor I are authors or co-authors of the Ordo Celebrationis. We translated it and added some footnotes; that is all. We have no personal responsibility for anything other than the accuracy of the translation and footnotes.

The Ordo Celebrationis was published by the Sacred Congregation for the Eastern Churches when I was about 2 years of age, so you may be certain that I did not write it. So far as I am aware, all the members of the Congregation's Liturgical Commission are now deceased, so unless you are into necromancy, you have no way of interrogating any of them. I am not their spokesman, nor is Jack Figel.

I might have some thoughts on the subject, but I am not about to allow you to impose responsibility on me for a text which I did not write.

You write that you accept responsibility for not being more cautious. That is well, but I would feel more reassured if your next paragraph had not been addressed to me and Mr. Figel in what appears to be something less than humility and edification.

Sorry to be so direct.

with every blessing,

Father Serge

One must take into account that at the time of Nicea the people went to Church much more often and they could express their piety by kneeling on other days. Also in those days kneeling was more associated with penance, today it is more associated with reverence. Given that in today's situation the majority (90%+) of the laity only go to Church on Sunday, I think it is perfectly reasonable to do what our Church had been doing, namely standing from Pascha to Pentecost and kneeling on other Sundays. I deem this an acceptable adaption of Nicea's Canon. We must remember the canons were made for the Church not the Church for the canons. It is also hard to convince the people that standing makes us more Eastern when they can walk down the street to the local Orthodox Church and find people kneeling on Sundays as well.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Dear Father Deacon,

There was an amusing episode in Hudson, New York, a few decades ago. Hudson is blessed with a Ukrainian Greek-Catholic parish and an OCA parish. Fine.

But, as it happened, both parishes fell vacant at the same time, and each parish was assigned a new priest. Well and good. Both new priests managed to arrive - without pre-arrangement - at the same moment, and since the churches are virtually across the street from each other, there is sometimes a bit of confusion.

The Ukrainian Greek-Catholic priest, who was full bearded (he's now reposing, we trust, in the heavenly kingdom, so I won't name him), emerged from his car, wearing a Greek cassock, pectoral cross, and skufia and, naturally, carrying his suitcase.

The OCA priest simultaneously emerged from his car. He was clean-shaven, wearing a "clergy suit", and also carrying a suitcase. Each priest approached the church to which he had been assigned.

Immediately the parishioners of each church approached the priest who was coming towards them saying "we're sorry, Father, but you want the church across the street!" Each priest then produced his documents, thus adding to the general confusion.

The confusion lessened a few days later when the wife and children of the OCA priest arrived! Father Theodore, at our church, was not married.

Just thought you would enjoy that delightful memory!

As to whether refraining from kneeling "makes us more Eastern" - it doesn't necessarily do that, but it does make us more consistent. The Roman Mass requires the priest to pray (second prayer of the Canon) "et omnium circumstantium". Since nobody is "circumstantium" at that moment, it would seem that somebody is remarkably inconsistent. Then again, a proper response to the injunction "let us stand aright" is not to get down on our knees!

What we say in Church is intended to be taken seriously.

I wonder if those who insist (for whatever reason) that we should kneel on Sunday also insist that on Pentecost Sunday the Vespers of Genuflection should be done in full.

Fr. Serge

Слава Ісусу Христу!


Gentlemen,

Although there is truth in your arguments, how relevant is it to 21st century man’s salvation? My 19c Baba (Granny) told us “Do as the priest when he is in the altar, do as he says when he isn’t”. Rubrics are for the clergy laving the people to follow as the spirit directs. The people’s expression should be organic not dictated by control freaks.

One parish I left when the pastor told me to get on my knees (ok the excuse not the reason). A few years later he announced from the pulpit parishioners were forbidden to kneel during the liturgy. What remains of this congregation decades later do not kneel during the liturgy, but as soon as the Royal Doors close they hit the floor for their private prayers. Passive aggressive reaction has almost eradicated many of our parishes. Other parishes where the “church people” started standing letting others kneel, eventually the kneeling almost disappears.

The people are the church, not the building with or without a curtain behind an iconostas of which many were not designed to hold. If we replace iconostases to hang curtains instead of feeding the hungry, conducting a full range Sunday School program or replacing a leaky roof we are not being Easterners but vanity seekers. I don’t care how beautiful a building is, without people using it, it is a museum not a church.

We discuss possible Latinization from the dictates at the top instead of the organic development from the people. Should nativity sets on the "tetrapod" be overlooked? Is singing AVA MARIA at a wedding with a guitar accompaniment worse than the father of the bride giving away his daughter? Why are Liturgies at funerals inappropriate? These trouble the people of God. Today.

Dear Father Serge,

Bless!

Your story is brilliant!!

In Christ,
Alice

Dear Alice,

Sometimes truth is stranger than fiction - glad you enjoyed that example of the genre!

Fr. Serge


Dear Mykhayl,


Depending on the size of the congregation, that could take a conisiderable amount of water!


And just who do you think manipulated the people into quite artificial forms of behaviour? The tooth fairy?


I remember serving a parish where that was happening. The immediate result was a nasty encounter at a parish meeting, with one contingent demanding to know why some people considered themselves "better" than others. Moral: if people want to fight, they will.


Forty years ago I might have called that an interesting idea. Now I find it excruciatingly boring. It has been used to justify some of the more egregious ecclesiastical misconduct of the later twentieth century, and the end is not in sight.


How's that again? I'm attempting to determine just what (according to you) was not designed to hold what. Surely there is no necessity to design an entire building just to "hold" a curtain! Nor is it necessary to design a curtain to hold an icon-screen. Nor is it necessary to draw up a special design in order to have an icon-screen which will hold a curtain. The processes involved really aren't all that complicated.


????

When was the last time you met someone who deliberately went around hanging curtains instead of feeding the hungry? Hanging a simple curtain where it belongs on the icon-screen costs precious little money - not enough to feed very many people. Do you know people who have gone out of their way to sell all the curtains in their homes and use the money derived from the sale of the curtains to feed the hungry?



And therefore? Are we supposed to junk the principle that beauty will save the world? Try visiting the Church of Our Saviour in Chora (in Constantinople) sometime. That matchless beauty continues to witness to the faith of those who built and adorned it - that one fresco of the Descent into Hell would be worth the trip all by itself. And something tells me that if the Turks allowed a scientific survey of the visitors to this "museum", one would find that the Christians heavily outnumber the non-Christians.

Speaking of Turkey, do you seriously believe that a significant number of Turks are making strenuous efforts to reclaim the Agia Sophia as a mosque just because the Muslims have no mosques in which to pray?

Have you ever even heard of anyone who would hang curtains while the roof was leaking?



No. They should be removed. The whole idea has to do with a skewed understanding of the Incarnation (and that, surprise, surprise, could just have bearing on the salvation of people). The art work is often in questionable taste and almost always inappropriate. But if it will make you feel any better, I don't object to the notion that the priest should exercise patience and act with caution, rather than insulting people's feelings.



To the best of my recollection, I've never heard anyone attempting to sing the Ave Maria with a guitar accompaniment - nor do I wish to hear it. As for "the father of the bride giving away his daughter", not only is no such practice to be found in our service-books, but these days any father who tries it is likely to be ambushed by the local feminists, quite possibly including his own daughter, who does not care to be considered as the equivalent of a bouquet of flowers or a box of chocolates, to be given away! [Before you ask, I like flowers and I'm always happy to be given a box of chocolates.]



Heavens, I don't know. So please tell me, why do Liturgies at funerals trouble the people of God? I've not had any such problem; most people in my experience prefer to have a Divine Liturgy with a funeral. In the exceptional case of those who do not, I will usually announce at the funeral that the forty-day Divine Liturgy will be held on such-and-such a day, and people come for it uncomplainingly.

Still less do I know what a Divine Liturgy at a funeral has to do with curtains, or a leaking roof. It could be construed as having some connection with feeding the hungry, since most of our faithful want and expect to have a meal for those who come to the funeral.

You seem to be severely angry at someone for something. But until you determine whom and what you are angry at, and acknowledge this, it will be almost impossible for anyone to be of help to you.

with every blessing,

Fr. Serge

My knees still remember that experience.

Fr Serge,

It is a pleasure to read your posts. I was so amused I laughed out loud.

Fr David Straut

Father Serge:

Father bless!!

First let me say that your posts are always edifying.

Then let me say that my daughter is marrying in October and I have yet to be asked to "give her way." And I doubt I will. I haven't even been invited to be part of the plans or preparations except to be told to rent a tux and rent a room.

Asking for your blessing and continued holy prayers,

BOB

Dear Byzantine TX, Father David, and Theophan,

Please accept my thanks - it's so nice to be appreciated!

One small question - if one is not "giving one's daughter away", why bother with a tux?

Fr. Serge

Father Serge:

It's for the "family picture," I guess. The etiquette book says that the fathers are supposed to be part of the wedding party, together with the mothers of the couple.

To tell the truth this is a real re-make of what I would consider "traditional," but I'm glad to just float along with the tide. There are lots of "non-traditonal" twists and turns to this one.

BOB

Слава Ісусу Христу!

Thank you Reverend Fathers for your direction.

Direction rather than dictation may be the basis of the subject here. To many Byzantine is synonymous with devious arrogance. Never the less many in our history are remembered lovingly because of their gentle nudging. The Ukrainian Orthodox Metropolitan John (Teodorovych) comes to mind. He accepted person re-consecration for unity sake yet allowed local irregularities rather than antagonize the piety of his children. Some of the "new" clerics direct without compassion. They drive many of our Eastern minded faithful away with the letter rather than the spirit seemingly to squander local parish reserves entrusted to them unchallenged. Who will replenish these voids?

Tim posted to this thread raising the issue of the custom of greeting visitors and newcomers to parishes. The discussion which followed has been excellent (and a pet topic of mine, personally), but far afield from the main topic of this thread as it was initiated by Deacon Paul.

I have moved the posts, beginning with the one by Tim, to Parish Life and Evangelization - the thread there is titled The Customs of Greeting: Making Visitors Welcome. Please continue that discussion there and, by all means, continue the discussion here on the original topic.

Many years,

Neil

Thank you Neil, you are a gentleman and a scholar.

Tim