www.byzcath.org Forums News & Events Church News Sedevacantist?

Well...we of the Russian Orthodox Church in Union with Old Rome may be called "sedevacantists".

You see, our Exarchate is still recognised, but empty. Hence, "the seat is vacant".

Please pray that our Holy Father will soon appoint an Exarch, a successor of Blessed Leontios.

traditionalrc (matt),
I have a few comments for you.

We would have to already believe that the Holy Father is a heretic for to believe the link you posted.

As Catholics we do not believe such a thing.

So what do you believe of the Orthodox churches? Or for us Eastern Catholics?

Forgive my being blunt here, but is this english? I can not make out what you are trying to say here.

Again, the link means nothing to those who do not already believe that Pope John Paul II is an antipope.

David

Dear Matt,

O.K., I'll admit that your arguments against the Vatican are compelling enough . . .

But ultimately it is not up to you or I to pronounce judgement on the Catholic Church. The saints you quote would NEVER have allowed that laity and others can have the competence to pronounce such judgement.

In fact, as St Robert Bellarmine said, the way in which a Pope can be unseated lies in the hands of the Church herself, a Council etc.

Not in the hands of people like you or I or even bishops who set themselves up against the Church.

Whenever I come across something the Church teaches that I don't know if I agree with, my first impulse is, "What if it ISN'T the Church that's at fault here - what if it's ME?"

I think that's called "humility."

And I'm proud of how much I have . . .

Have a nice day, but leave our Slavic Pope alone or we'll come after you!

Alex

When has the Catholic Church or the Papacy in the times of V2 or afterwards ever denied this?

Logos Teen

Lots to address.

"" are you speaking english? what do you think of the orthodox and eastern churches ""

1. the orthodox deny the last 13 councils of the catholic church, they deny that the holy spirit proceeds from the father and son, they do not believe in the successor of peter.

these are (key) doctrines we must believe in order to be catholic.

now as for the eastern churches that do believe in al doctrines and the pope they are true catholics with different rites.

As for sedevacantism.

look at this from my standpoint please.

Would satan literally deny the faith in his words?

no. he would decieve people by making them think he is just while creating suddle lies.

heres some points of heresy jp2 commited and why we hold this belief, please admin dont delete this. im being sincere here.

1. JP2 kissed a koran bible and knelt to it.

this book calls christians poly theist (infidels). the koran states that jesus was (not) crucified.

now ive asked myself this question.

would jesus kiss a book and kneel to a book which says he was not crucified?

the answer should be obvious to anybody.

i could provide a photo of him doing this.

2. Jp2 has prayed with jews, pagans, and heretics, hes even bowed down to a buddhist statue.

no other pope in history has prayed with other religious leaders.

because it has been condemned by the church since it began. its not only wrong but a slap to the christ. note that he didnt pray for them but with them to the (one) god of all relgions.

3. He is a member of vatican ll and approves the new mass.

this mass has literally removed god from his own church. god is being systematically being removed from his own mass.

1. the words of consecration have never been changed before the new mass was instituted, you can go back to the councils of florence and trent and the canon of the mass to find out through infallible teachings that the words of consecration have always been the same.

"" this is my body, this is my blood of the new and ever lasting covenant, the mystery of (faith), which shall be shed for you and for (many) unto the remission of sins ""

this is how it always was before the new mass.

the new mass reads..

"" this is my body, this is my blood of the new and everlasting covenant, which shall be shed for you and for (all) unto the remission of sins ""

1. the mystery of faith was taken out.

2. for many was replaced by for all.

why do you think the world is like it is today?

because of this change it takes away gods presence in the eucharist and this is why so many today have no grace in them, look at the world to see this and catholics.

al councils before v2 proclaim in ex cathedra infallible councils that the words (cannot) change.

thats how i see it baised on what the church taught for decades and decades, the same unchanging doctrines of the aith which changed at V2.

so heres how i see it, this is my opinion but i bais this on infallible councils.

1. V2 is a false council created by satan, an imposter church that appears to be catholic.

2. all popes since then are not valid since the council itself contains much heresy atleast 200 teachings contradicting former councils who all held the same view.

3. Most catholics today tink vatican ll, the new mass, jp2 are all valid and accept even their heresy baised on blind obedience.

4. And finally that rome will lose the faith and become the seat of the antchrist.

which lasalett confirms and timothy.

"" Unless the revolt come first and the man of sin be revealed and sitteth in (the) (temple) of god the end will not come ""

I believe jp2 is the false prophet.. now this is only my opinion. i bais it on that sister lucy said that we were in chapter 13 in the 1980s.

"" chapter 13.

"" one of its head was mortally wounded, its wound was healed ""

"" he had power to blaspheme god and his (tabernacle) ""

stuff like having world religious meetings, praying with pagans, kneeling to buddhist statues, kissing the muslim holy book, calling the muslim god and catholic god the same god.

to me is blasphemey against god and his church.

this is how i see it with all due sincerety to not offend anubody here.

peace.

Shlomo (Peace in Aramaic)traditionalrc,

Firstoff, the Church of Christ is divided into three levels. The Church Militant, Triumpant, and Spiritual. Since we are only one of those Churches we subsist as the other two do subsist in the Church of Christ. Just as both the Roman Church and the Maronite Church subsist in the Catholic Communion of Churches.

Poosh BaShlomo,
Yuhannon

Shlomo traditionalrc,

I can see by your posts that you are confussing what is required to be a Catholic with what is required to be a Roman Catholic.

We Eastern Catholics are not required to believe that the Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son. That is a specific formula that goes to a Western Heresy.

We Eastern Catholics believe in ALL the dogmas of the Church, not necessarily all the doctrines (see our take on Original Sin).

There are different forms of prayers. As a Catholic I would hope that you would understand that. Our are prayers to Mary and the saints the same as those to God? No!

Also, lets move beyond your Romano-Centric ideals. First, if you hold that the Eastern Catholic Bishops are legitimately elected by there Holy Synods, then either they are wrong to be in communion with Rome or correct. Further, if the See of Rome was vacant, then under the Canons of the Holy Councils it should be immediately filled.

Most of your arguementation deals with a specific Patriarchal issues not Papal, nor of any concern of any other Catholic Church. From an Eastern perspective you are a "protestant" against your patriarch and your Church.

Poosh BaShlomo,
Yuhannon

traditionalrc,

The words of consecration are the same in Latin in the Pauline Mass as they are for the Pian Mass. They are also expressed as "for many" in every other translation of the Mass. Only in English have the words "for many" been substituted with "for all".

Your problem lies with the ICEL, not with His Holiness.

In Christ,
mikey.

Dear TraditionalRC,

You have broken your agreement.

When you registered on The Byzantine Forum you agreed not to engage in heavy apologetics and that you respected that the general focus of this community was topics pertaining to Eastern Christianity.

Your posts on the Forum indicate that you have a very faulty grasp of Catholic teaching. I highly recommend you find a good Catholic priest to work with to learn about the Faith. You lead no one to Christ when you make accusations that are patently false and easily disproved.

Please contact me before attempting to post again.

Admin

Dear Dave, there is a difference. The Russian Catholic Church is still in communion with Rome. The sedevacantists are in communion with no one other than their own various factions.

But I would disagree that your Exarchate is "recognized" as all of the Russian Catholic parishes are directly subject canonically to the local Roman Catholic hierarchy. If the Exarchate was recognized, an administrator, locum tenens, etc. would be in place which would be recognized. I do agree that the Russian Catholic Church is certainly a sui iuris Church, and should be, but this situation with its hiearchy is very problematic.

The Russian Catholics were protected under the omophorion of Blessed Metropolitan Sheptytsky who accepted Blessed Leonid as a Studite monk. After the death of Metropolitan Andrey they were also supported by Patriarch Josyp Slipjy.

With the UGCC Patriarchate moving to Kyiv and a new eparchy in Donetsk with some Russian-speaking parishes, along with a Slavic Pope, I think the time is right for Russian Catholics worldwide to convene a Sobor like the Sobor of 1917 in St. Petersburg and ask Patriarch Lubomyr to appoint an Exarch nominated by the Russian Catholics.

This would seem to be a far better solution than being reliant on either the local Roman hierarchy or the Roman dicastery better known as the Congregation for the Eastern Churches as is the case now.

Diak~~

You do realise that I'm being facetious about being "sedevacantist"... I don't believe that the Seat of Peter is vacant, rather the Seat of Leontius.

From what I've heard the Holy See publishes its periodic listing of bishoprics and eparchies...The latest listed the Russian Catholic Exarchate...but showed it vacant..

The Mother of God of Kazan has returned to Russia...may she prepare the way for the Pope of Old Rome to visit as well!

Dear Alex,

AHHH!

Right.

What more can I say?

Thanks all.

Steve

Dear Coalesco,

Thank you for your rant! It refreshed memories from the time of the Council, the beginning of the changes, and what's happened since.

That burst of energy was like a burst of fire through the Church! It was a time of wonder and of fear. It was a time of faith reexamined and renewed for so many people. The challenges were enormous and stimulating: the transitional liturgies, the beginning of ecumenicism, the teachings on the Church and the Churches, the stress on the Eastern Catholic and Orthodox and Oriental churches.

The Council and the renewal that came from it were like a spiritual big bang in our time for us in the Western Church!

Come to think of it, the burst isn't finished! the renewal continues and matures with a firm guide at the helm. It has truly enriched the Church.

Pope John Paul II has repeatedly said, quoting Christ, Ne Timere! Don't be afraid. Wouldn't it be great if we could help our sede vacantist brothers and sisters to trust and not be afraid of change. I pray for the day when they reach out and take the hand that the Pope extends to them in Christ's Name.

The Burst of Flame, the Spirit, isn't finished with us or the sede vacantists, yet!

Someday we will walk together, I think.

Again, thanks.

Steve

But I would disagree that your Exarchate is "recognized" as all of the Russian Catholic parishes are directly subject canonically to the local Roman Catholic hierarchy.

Oh this is so sad, at least they could be placed under Eastern Rite Bishops, wouldn't that be better? Why did Rome (?) choose to put them under Latin Bishops?

I was wondering, why would a sedevacantist be so interested in Eastern christianity. Understanding Sedevacantism is very complex to me, even more than understanding the priestless Old Believers. Some would that JPII is Pope but lost his Papal power, some would say that he isn't Pope at all and that after Pius XII the see has been vacant, some would say that the sacraments of the Roman Church under the Pope are valid, but some would say they are totally invalid an devoid of grace (what a mess)

In Mexico there is a sedevacantist group called "Priesty Union of Trent", they hold the last view (the radical one). In spite of their weird views I have some kind of sympathy for them, because of the extremely brutal way they were persecuted here.

In Michoacan (Mex) there's a group that is even more radical, they say that after Pius XII all the orders were invalid so they don't have priests, laymen say a "mass" in latin but without consacration and they say that the end of the world is inminent and that Satan is reigning.

By the way, I suggest that this thread is placed in the Byzantine Town Hall since it has nothing to do with Byzantine News or Eastern Christianity.

I was just poking you a little, Dave...

The perserverance and holiness of Blessed Leonid are incredible.

I try to go to St. Michael's in Manhattan at least once year from way out here in the Midwest. God willing, a Russian Catholic deacon will also be presenting me for my pending diaconal ordination.