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Paul B #307705 12/19/08 11:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Paul B
This is quite an inflammatory statement

Fr. Deacon Paul,

Is is inflammatory because I wrote it or because it is true?

Face it. Your church cannot afford a traditionl ministry of married priests ordained from this country or an ordained cantorship like the previous poster states. It has to use shortcuts or new ministries that don't oblige it to be responsible. I am not saying this to be nasty, but to simply point out a fact. Eucharist ministers in place of deacons. Girls dressed up like altar boys to help distribute communion. The demand for such lay ministers isn't because your church is growing with standing room only in your communities churches. No. It is because of lack of money and the fact that many women are looking at the state of affairs in their church as an opportunity to "do ministry." But you are correct. When there is abuse or lack of proper leadership, non-traditional forms of ministry are formed to fill the void. Maybe the Holy Spirit is working where church leaders cannot or will not. Maybe things are too broke to restore, hence the reason why the RDL is the way it is; it can only be restored to accomodate those who pushed for it. Those same people that we will never know who.

Christianity is becoming feminized and effeminate. It doesn't speak to people because Jesus' message is too politically incorrect. Paul said that homosexuals deserve death (Rom 1). When was the last time you heard THAT sermon in your church? The East has a knack for keeping a balance between men and women in church. However, lately, the Byzantine Catholic church is accomodating to feminism. It will even abuse the Holy Writ and plug in gender neutral words that cannot be found in ANY ancient manuscript. Nothing is beneath this agenda.

Ed

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Ed,

I don't know why you are so antagonistic against the Byzantine Catholic Church and its none of my business. What is my business is taking an exception and stereotyping it as the typical BC parish.
When was the last time that you heard in ANY church that homosexuals deserve death?

Can't afford paid cantors? Maybe, maybe not. Stereotyping again! Can't afford married priests? Maybe, maybe not, depending on the parish.... stereotyping again.
Girls dresed up like altar boys to help distribute communion?? Where?
Eucharistic ministers IN PLACE OF DEACONS? This is being addressed as more deacons are becoming available. Actually eucharistic ministers are rare.

Pointing out facts??? Back it up that these are not exceptions.

I do take exception that you throw out these "facts"...and consider them inflammatory.
Do you know a perfect metropolia where everything is hunky dory? If you do Ed, then you should point it out so that people can go visit.

Fr Deacon Paul



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Originally Posted by Ed Hash
Paul said that homosexuals deserve death (Rom 1).
Careful. What Paul said is that many deserve death for their sins but he does not anywhere say that the Church should kill them. If you are claiming we should execute homosexuals then you will need to execute a whole lot of people. It is much better to bring them for the Lord through the power of the Cross. I’m not saying you’re advising mass executions but your post too unclear to be considered charitable.

Quote
Romans 1:24-31: Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever! Amen. For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. Their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural, and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in their own persons the due penalty for their error. And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a base mind and to improper conduct. They were filled with all manner of wickedness, evil, covetousness, malice. Full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malignity, they are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. Though they know God's decree that those who do such things deserve to die, they not only do them but approve those who practice them.
On the larger point the feminization of Christianity with secular values (i.e., those who demand that the equality of men and women means sameness) has indeed harmed the Church. Pope John Paul the Great’s teaching on true Christian feminism On the Dignity and Vocation of Women [vatican.va] (1988) is quite excellent and very appealing. The secular feminism that has infected the Church does indeed turn people away.

Paul B #307781 12/20/08 10:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Paul B
Ed, I don't know why you are so antagonistic against the Byzantine Catholic Church and its none of my business. What is my business is taking an exception and stereotyping it as the typical BC parish.

I am not the one being antagonistic. I am only pointing out things. If your shepherds are permitting antagonistic activities, then you should challenge them. But you won't because as a deacon you are to remain obedient to them. So, you will never challenge them on these things, hence the reason for calling them antagonistic. You remain defensive and obedient just the way you are supposed to be.

Originally Posted by Paul B
When was the last time that you heard in ANY church that homosexuals deserve death?

Do you think Paul meant to go kill homosexuals? Their sins have already killed them on their own doing because they have exchanged God for burning lust for each other - and approving it in others! YOu tell me why your shepherds will not teach against this great sin. My aunt tells me that your church paid some hefty fines in lawsuits for such behavior. Muslims don't have to kill us; we do a good job in killing our own souls.

Originally Posted by Paul B
Can't afford paid cantors? Maybe, maybe not. Stereotyping again! Can't afford married priests? Maybe, maybe not, depending on the parish.... stereotyping again.


What do your cantors get paid? Show me their salary grades/chart. What do your married priests get paid? My aunt tells me that many of the Ukrainian Catholic clergy have left for Orthodoxy because they are paid almost nothing in the Catholic churches. SHe told me that their parish secretary got paid more than their pastor. The people who take care of the upkeep of the church properties got paid even more.

Originally Posted by Paul B
Girls dresed up like altar boys to help distribute communion?? Where?


I read on this forum that girls in the US and Europe are vested as altar boys. Your bishops allow it.

Originally Posted by Paul B
Eucharistic ministers IN PLACE OF DEACONS? This is being addressed as more deacons are becoming available. Actually eucharistic ministers are rare.

Your church allows it and it has been a topic of discussion on these forums. Why eucharistic ministers if you DO have deacons?

Originally Posted by Paul B
I do take exception that you throw out these "facts"...and consider them inflammatory.


Then you should direct your anger towards your shepherds who allow it. If such actions are inflammatory, then they should know that. I am only the messenger, not the one who allows it in your churches.

Originally Posted by Paul B
Do you know a perfect metropolia where everything is hunky dory? If you do Ed, then you should point it out so that people can go visit.

Is this your defense? You seem angry because I simply point out the facts. Your church DOES have guidelines for eucharistic ministers. Your shepherds DO allow girls to dress up like altar boys and help distribute communion. Why are you angry with me? I am not the one giving permission for these things to happen; your shepherds are. IN the long run, there really is no reason for deacons in your church if altar girls, unpaid music ministers, and eucharistic ministers are doing the job for no money and with no extensive training in theology. My Baptist friends pay their music minister at least $40k/year salary. They only have 300 members in their congregation. THeir pastor makes a lot more.

Its not about money. Don't get me wrong. But when any community relies only on volunteers, it gets what it pays for. It doesn't always go the right way. The church leaders have to make exceptions, such as permitting women in non-traditional roles/ministries. Your infamous RDL makes exceptions to the Holy Writ by permitting gender neutral words. To date, YOUR church officials will still NOT tell you WHO pushed for these changes. Wouldn't you like to know? I am sure it would make things more understandable.

Pretty soon, the men in the Byzantine Catholic church will give up on it. You will have to rely on women performing all the ministerial functions. THIS IS GOOD. It is about time. Your shepherds are seeing the light and finally permitting women a role in church ministery that men have monopolized for centuries, nay, say millenia. Your services might not be needed.

Ed

EdHash #307785 12/20/08 11:01 PM
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The term is "Extraordinary Minister of Holy Communion" when lay persons assist in the distribution of Holy Communion.

"Eucharistic Ministers" are the bishops, priests and Deacons.

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EdHash,

I'm going to caution you about posting in the tone you did. This forum expects polite discourse. Your post seems to extrapolate from what you claim you were told and presents a picture that is totally out of sync with what the Church is actually about. Your anger seems to be getting the better of your judgment.

Fr. Deacon Ed

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Dear Fr. Deacon Ed,

I believe the guidelines for lay eucharistic ministers comes from you chief shepherds. Remember the 70+ person rule that was discussed on these forums not so long ago? Why do you wish to deny what Byzantine Catholics were discussing here? I wasn't the one posting the rule or discussing the topic. A number of your church deacons were discussing it.

As for the altar girls, this too was discussed a number of times on these forums. Pictures of vested girls from Europe were posted too. I wasn't the one taking pictures or discussing what was/is happening in these churches. Byzantine Catholics who post on these forums did. I can only copy you on what other posters have written about in their churches.

Your church does not ordain cantors/singers in its church; nor do your bishops make assignments to them. They are not paid nor is there any rules of compensation for their services. A Melkite Catholic bishop was discussed at length on these forums who was upset that everyone else gets paid to keep up the church, but the auxiliary ministers. He, not me, had a tone in his sermon that indicated someone who didn't like the status quo. Your church has cantor school, and now graduates "certified" cantors/singers. Is "certified" something like "ordained" but without the canonical responsibility? Do you have a salary schedule available to share dismissing my "extrapolations"? I would be interested in being proved wrong if only a salary schedule from your dioceses was made available and proof that "certified" not "ordained" cantors/singers are being paid. I read on these forums once that your churches DO have statutory guidelines for paying its singers for special services (marriage, funeral) but how many singers know that? How many get paid? My aunt's former pastor used to receive a single check from the funeral home meant for all the ministers. However, he never paid his singers who took their day off to help bury the congregation's dead. He kept it for himself. This is sleazy.

It wasn't me who has a study/formation program for lay ministers. These lay ministers - again, not ordained ministers - have to go through the same application procedures as your deacons. My aunt was asked to write a letter of recommendation for one woman. She was reviewed by your shepherd's pastoral advisory board along with the deacon applicants, and was even written about in her church newspaper. I wasn't the one asking women laity to go throught such application procedures and studies to become "certified" lay ministers.

Your church, not me, will not ordain seminarians who go through the seminary process. Why educate clergy only to have them rejected because their church cannot pay for them? Is this why your shepherds prefer married men from Europe and financially secure men (older and with an employed or self-employed spouse to foot the medical bills) because they are cheap? The seminaries in Eastern Europe cannot find their seminary graduates ministerial/pastoral jobs because there is no place to assign them. However, your pastors are taking care of two or three congregations because the seminary is nearly empty. It was on these forums that we learned that the average age of an ordained clergyman was 60. Check out your Ukrainian colleagues. Many of the married priests who came over from Europe cannot live on the Catholic salaries, so many have jumped ship and have become Orthodox. Better pay for hungry mouths to feed.

The Baptist congregation I mention - as well as many other smaller congregations - DO pay their ministers well because they tithe. How many Byzantine Catholic tithe 10% of their GROSS income? You only need ten such families in a congregation to pay a minister an 'average' congregation salary.

If altar girls are assisting the priest in the "lay ministery" of eucharistic distribution - without going through formation, education, and lay eucharistic minister training, then ordained deacons may be opted out. If girls can do it, why have the more expensive option of educating grown men?

What I state here, Fr. Deacon Ed, are not "extrapolations" from what I was told but a summary of the many threads/posts from these forums. There is a lot of concern in your church about such things. I only added my comments to the fray. Any traditional church that begins to rely more and more on "lay" ministers, such as the Byzantine Catholics are now doing, is a church in trouble. Everyone is being invited to pick up the pieces without the church picking up the tab. This is short-sheeting; getting nipped at both ends.

I am not THAT foreign to the Byzantine Catholic church. The Hashinsky family is widespread across this country. They witness a lot. It is not about "anger" like you envision. The thread's topic is about "lay ministers". I am adding my two cents based on witnesses and the many posts that these forums have enlightened us with. Are you suggesting that the byzcath.org forums are presenting a picture of the church not in sync with reality? Maybe the thread about the 70+ person rule for eucharistic ministers should have been deleted or closed?

That most of the lay ministers in the Catholic churches are women indicated that the church has finally let the doors open for them. I learned from THIS website that one Roman Catholic bishop closed his deacon program because many of the jobs that lay ministers held were being taken over by the ordained deacons. This had to stop, so the bishop did just that.

As for homosexuals and Paul's letter to the Romans (chapter 1), I would like to know your church's teaching on this biblical passage. It is quite severe. And note that I did not write it. It was written by Paul the Evangelist, a saint in the eyes of Catholics. From your church's lectionary, posted here on this website, this letter is conveniently read only on a weekday when no sermon is usually given. If Romans 1 was proclaimed in Byzantine Catholic churches on a Sunday, what would your shepherds and clergymen preach about? These were very tough words from Paul - that such people "deserve death". What do you think Paul meant by such words?

Please do not consider me an angry person. I am not angry. I study many churches and comment on them in many places. The Byzantine Catholics are, indeed, a wonderful group of people. But this thread permitted me to comment on contemporary trends going on in it.

Ed Hashinsky
(an alleged cradle Byzantine Catholic; still looking into THAT one)

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Originally Posted by Pavel Ivanovich
The term is "Extraordinary Minister of Holy Communion" when lay persons assist in the distribution of Holy Communion.

"Eucharistic Ministers" are the bishops, priests and Deacons.

What is the difference? What determines an "extraordinary" circumstance for "extraordinary" ministers?

But thank you for clarifying the term for those lay ministers in the Byzantine Catholic church.

Who, btw, trains your Byzantine Catholic "Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion"?

Ed

EdHash #307803 12/21/08 04:30 AM
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https://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/266391/1
Roman Catholic Girl Alter Servers?
Matthew Katona
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Loc: Toledo Ohio Forgive me, but we went to a Roman Mass with my wife's family and they had girl alter servers... When was this allowed??

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#266113 - 12/03/07 03:22 PM Re: Roman Catholic Girl Alter Servers? [Re: Matthew Katona]
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Loc: Where we say men and mankind Probably twenty or so years ago. They can be found in the Byzantine rite also.


http://ad-orientem.blogspot.com/2007/08/whats-wrong-with-these-pictures.html
What's wrong with these pictures?


http://www.edmontoneparchy.com/images/Lethbridge.JPG
Edmonton Ukrainian Catholics


https://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/296343/2
Re: Altar Girls? [Re: Diak]
Fr. Deacon Lance
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Loc: Washington, PA The one time I saw it was in Parma, and the girl did not enter the altar but did wear a sticharion. She read the Epistle and held candles for the Entrances and Communion.

Fr. Deacon Lance

https://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/306413/St.%20Sharbel%20Maronite%20Church%20co

St. Sharbel Maronite Church consecrated in Las Vegas
dochawk
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Loc: Las Vegas Hmm, nothing about this so far . . .

Yesterday, St. Sharbel was consecrated in Las Vegas. Their bishop and five priests, as well as the pastor, concelebrated. I believe all five were former pastors (or whatever the correct term for a priest assigned to a mission is!)...............

I was surprised that they had a female alter server..............

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Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic
The lack of priests and the issue of vocations is a central one in the RC and EC Churches. Lay ministry seems to lull us into a sense of "everthing's OK, we'll deal with it some time in the future."

The seminaries in Europe are packed from what I hear (and read on the byzcath forums).

Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic
Lay ministers have a greater (and negative) impact on the Church than would, say, an edict from Rome tomorrow declaring the 150,000 priests who have left to get married to be able to return to the Church to exercise their Orders once again.

That would solve many a vocation problems. Fully educated and trained clergymen ready to go at a moment's notice.

Ed

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Where did you get that about "altar girl" giving out Holy Communion? Where is this happening?

The original posting to tis thread was to do with the Roman Catholic Diocese of Trenton.

As for why seminaries in the USA and other western countries were empty I suggest you read 'Goodbye, Good Men' By Michael S. Rose, for his study on this topic. This explains very well in my view and experience the reasons we in the Catholic church had the vocation shortages we had to have. Diocese who follow the Church's oficial line have plenty of vocations. Diocese with another agenda have empty seminaries and the same applies to religious orders.

Lay people have always undertaken a number of roles in their parishes just it was never really seen a real work. Recognition of the valuable work laity undertake in their own church is possibly what this lable 'Lay Ministers' is all about. Like everything it is open to abuse if not properly managed. Their role is to support the Priest and complement his role and not replace him in any way shape of form.

I dont believe for one minute that those who left the Catholic Church and the very first thing they appeared to do, was get married left the church because of celebacy issues alone. The first thing they did in fact was have a number of issues about the faith that realy took them out of the priesthood and in many cases the Catholic Church. They could not say the Creed, as they did not hold what it states. So they are not coming back to the Catholic Church anytime soon celebacy rules, or no celebacy rules.

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I've alternately locked and unlocked this thread, first because of complaints about the uncharitable tone of some of the posters and the unfounded accusations made in some posts, and then because of the request of others who felt that this thread needed some answers to some of the things posted. frown

Let me warn one and all of the rules governing this forum, first of charity, and then of remaining on topic. frown

This thread began as a mention of the installation of lay ministers in a Latin diocese. It has devolved into arguments over Eastern Catholic practices which may or may not, in fact, be in effect. Let's remain on topic. frown

theophan #307863 12/22/08 03:20 AM
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For what it is worth,

Extraordinary ministers of the Eucharist,
Altar girls,

These things do not incline us towards unity at all, in any way.

I won't even begin with the charismatic movement.


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Ed,

First let me say whether intentional or not you are offending a lot of people here and please do not hide behind the excuse of: "its not me its your bishops." You come here as a non-Eastern Catholic with an awful lot of criticism for our Churches. I was taught you don't go into another's home and then criticize it.

Now to some of your extrapolations.

Eastern Catholic Churches (and Orthodox Churches) have lay ministers. Any server, lector, cantor, or catechist who is not ordained is a lay minister. For a long time, at least in America, females have been allowed to serve as the latter three, service at the altar being restricted to males. Some priests have disobeyed our liturgical law out right and used girls as altar servers, some have used an alternate route and use them to perform servers duties but outside the altar, avoiding violating the law. I don't know where you got the idea altar girls were giving out Communion, however.

More recentlty in 1999 the Particular Law of our Metroplia was promulagted which states:

"Canon 709 §2

§l. In cases of true necessity, deacons may distribute the Divine Eucharist.

§2. In the same cases, even minor clerics and members of the laity can be designated to distribute the Divine Eucharist.

1. A parish may have one person designated for this purpose plus another for each 75 communicants at the Liturgy.

2. The metropolitan Liturgical Commission is to prepare a program of training that includes theological and spiritual formation, the selection process for candidates and a practicum.

3. Those persons may take communion to those who, by reason of illness, infirmity or age, cannot attend the Divine Liturgy regularly.

4. If any priest or deacon is present at the Liturgy, in any capacity whatever, he is to make himself known to the principal celebrant and shall distribute the Divine Eucharist, vested insofar as possible, and taking precedence over any minor cleric or lay person present."

So a parish may have one extraordinary minister to help a priest to distribute the Holy Gifts at Liturgy under limited circumstances (I don't know of any of our parishes that would have more than 150 people communing at a Liturgy) or take them to the infirm or shut-in. The parishes I have seen these in use in had elderly pastors with physical problems.

Some cantors are paid. My parish pays ours.

As to Holy Writ, the Metropolia only employed gender neutral language in some prayers and hymns of the Liturgy. The Gospel, Epislte and Prophetic readings are from the 1970 NAB and the Psalms are from 1963 Grail Psalter, both are non-inclusive.

The Byzantine Lectionary has been set for hundreds of years now. Our Lectionary only has a one year cycle, so quite a few readings occur only on weekdays. No pro-homosexual agenda to bury the hard words of St. Paul as you seem to be implying. As to what our Church teaches surely you must know the Catholic Church teaches that people of homosexual orientation are God's children that suffer from a sexual disorder. This in itself is not sinful. To engage in sex outside of sacramental marriage, which can onbly be bewtween a man and woman, is a sin. To promote sex outside of sacramental marriage is a sin. I have talked about this teaching in my own homilies several times.

Some Orthodox Jurisdictions pay their priests poorly also.

Not all lay minsiters are unpaid. In you average Latin Catholic parish the musicians are paid as are those who take on adminitrative duites. This site will tell you all about them:

http://www.usccb.org/laity/laymin/

Fr. Deacon Lance




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Originally Posted by Fr. Deacon Lance
Ed,

First let me say whether intentional or not you are offending a lot of people here and please do not hide behind the excuse of: "its not me its your bishops." You come here as a non-Eastern Catholic with an awful lot of criticism for our Churches. I was taught you don't go into another's home and then criticize it.

Amen, amen, amen.

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