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http://churchtimes.co.uk/templates/...p;bimage=news&issue=7316&count=0 Dr Kasper spoke of �a re-evaluation� of Apostolicae Curae, the bull of Leo XIII which declared that Anglican orders were null and void; though he said that �a final solution can be found only in the larger context of full communion in faith, sacramental life and shared apostolic vision�. So, what is Cardinal Kasper trying to say here? Is Kasper speaking for the Church or his personal opinion? Remember, this is the same Cardinal who said the Jews did not need Jesus. Where is Rome going with this? Is Rome going to say now that the Orientals where Ok to say Jesus was not Human? What's next? I see dark roads ahead for the Church.
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Johan:
I wouldn't worry about Cardinal Kaspar. The statements don't make a lot of sense to me. They are probably his own opinion.
I'd be more disturbed if the same thing had been said by Cardinal Ratzinger at the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. Any serious statements of agreement would have to pass the litmus test there.
Anyone can speak for himself and anyone can add to the dialogue. But I think we've got to look seriously at the implications here. I don't believe that one Pope lightly sets aside something that a predecessor has done or said. The reason seems to be that if a pattern started it would encourage more challenges of a sitting Pontiff. And Heaven knows there is already enough of that going on without adding this type of precedent.
BOB
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Cardinal Kasper scares the living buhjeepers out of me (euphemistically speaking).  Logos Teen
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Dear Johan S., The site you provided links to the full address. Here's a little more of what Cardinal Kasper actually said ... it is not a question of apostolic succession in the sense of an historical chain of laying on of hands running back through the centuries to one of the apostles — this would be a very mechanical and individualistic vision, which, by the way, historically could hardly be proved and ascertained.
The Catholic view is different from such an individualistic and mechanical approach. Its starting-point is the collegium of the apostles as a whole. Together they received the promise that Jesus Christ will be with them till the end of the world (Matthew 28.20).
So after the death of the historical apostles they had to co-opt others who took over some of their apostolic functions. In this sense, the whole of the episcopate stands in succession to the whole of the collegium of the apostles.
To stand in the apostolic succession is not a matter of an individual historical chain, but of collegial membership in a collegium, which, as a whole, goes back to the apostles by sharing the same apostolic faith and the same apostolic mission. The laying on of hands is, under this aspect, a sign of co-option in a collegium.
This has far-reaching consequences for the acknowledge-ment of the validity of the episcopal ordination of an other Church. Such acknowledgement is not a question of an uninterrupted chain, but of the uninterrupted sharing of faith and mission, and as such is a question of communion in the same faith and in the same mission.
It is beyond the scope of our present context to discuss what this means for a re-evaluation of Apostolicae Curae (1896) of Pope Leo XIII, who declared Anglican orders null and void, a decision that still stands between our Churches. Without doubt, this decision, as Cardinal Willebrands had already affirmed, must be understood in our new ecumenical context in which our communion in faith and mission has considerably grown. A final solution can be found only in the larger context of full communion in faith, sacramental life and shared apostolic mission. Also if you read the full text you will note that Kaspar does touch on the the so-called monophysite issue. (There is also an interesting passage on primacy.) I don't remeber any Cardinal saying that the "Jews did not need Jesus". I recall, however, Ratzinger saying something that was tendentiously interpreted as suggesting this. The roads look very bright, not dark, to me.
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Dear Johan,
If by "Orientals" you mean the Oriental Orthodox Churches - then are you saying they "denied" that Christ is Human?
The only true "Monophysite" that we know of was Eutyches of Egypt.
He refused to admit that Christ was consubstantial with humanity.
But, when questioned by Greek theologians, he readily admitted that Christ is consubstantial with His Most Pure Mother.
And that is perfectly acceptable and orthodox as well.
The Oriental Orthodox Churches adhered to the terminiology of St Cyril of Alexandria, recognized as a saint by the Latin Church, as you know.
Both Catholic and Orthodox Churches today recognize that the Oriental Churches are perfectly orthodox with respect to their Christology and the Patriarch of Alexandria, and others, has signed a theological agreement with the Pope of Rome himself in this regard.
As for the Anglicans, there have been Orthodox Patriarchs in the past who have recognized the validity of their Orders.
Alex
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djs, Come on! Please... You know what Kasper was saying about the Jews. Go Here if you need your mind refreshed: http://www.beliefnet.com/story/110/story_11093_1.html Kaspers excerpted from "Reflections on Covenant and Mission", Thus mission, in this strict sense, cannot be used with regard to Jews, who believe in the true and one God. Why not Cardinal Kasper? Jesus cross is the only way to salvation. The ONLY way! According to Roman Catholic teaching, both the Church and the Jewish people abide in covenant with God. No, Cardinal Kasper the Jewish covenant is through Jesus Christ and him alone. To deny that would be heresy. Nonetheless, the Church does perceive that the Jewish people�s mission ad gentes (to the nations) continues. This is a mission that the Church also pursues in her own way according to her understanding of covenant. Are you serious Cardinal Kasper? However, this evangelizing task no longer includes the wish to absorb the Jewish faith into Christianity and so end the distinctive witness of Jews to God in human history. Heresy! Thus, while the Catholic Church regards the saving act of Christ as central to the process of human salvation for all, it also acknowledges that Jews already dwell in a saving covenant with God. Thus, we see Cardinal Kasper saying the Jews do not need Jesus. The man is speaking heresy and should be excommunicated from the Church until he converts to Christianity. Finally, I was only speaking figuratively when I was talking about the Oriental Orthodox. In other words, what next is this man going to say that is outrages.
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I try not to "blast" Church hierarchs, but I'll censor this by saying that "Cardinal" Kasper really gets under my skin.
Logos Teen
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When the hierarchs do something that is obviously wrong we the laity have the right to speak up. Countless saints in history have showed this. Cardinal Kasper is obviously wrong. It is a wonder the Church has not censored him.
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Johan S: Thanks for the link that includes quote from Cardinal Kaspar that I hadn't remembered. THe document in question, "Reflections on Covenant and Mission" - by the Consultation of the National Council of Synagogues and the U.S. Catholic Bishops' Committee for Ecumenical and Interreligious Affairs - was discussed at length on this forum last summer. https://www.byzcath.org/bboard/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=000754;p=1 I had thought however, that you might have been referring to the similar remarks that came a little earlier from the Vatican, and accompanying comments of Cardinal Ratzinger, also previously discussed: https://www.byzcath.org/cgibin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=000532 My feeling was that much of the nuance in Ratzinger's remarks was missed by his many critics, and that his remarks, like the "Reflections...", was unfairly characterized. As to the quotes that you now give from Cardinal Kaspar... Like the snippet in your first post that misses the careful and qualified nuance of the his actual statement, you again take too small of a quote. You quote: Thus mission, in this strict sense, cannot be used with regard to Jews, who believe in the true and one God. but Kaspar is quoted in the article as saying: The term mission, in its proper sense, refers to conversion from false gods and idols to the true and one God, who revealed himself in the salvation history with His elected people. Thus mission, in this strict sense, cannot be used with regard to Jews, who believe in the true and one God. Therefore, and this is characteristic, there exists dialogue but there does not exist any Catholic missionary organization for Jews. You may disagree with the use of the word " mission" in this qualified sense, but is unfair to give a partial quote that conceals the particular usage here. The other quotes are not, AFAIK, quotes from Kaspar, but from the Consultation. But here again you are being a little too selective. You quote: Thus, while the Catholic Church regards the saving act of Christ as central to the process of human salvation for all, it also acknowledges that Jews already dwell in a saving covenant with God. The article states: Thus, while the Catholic Church regards the saving act of Christ as central to the process of human salvation for all, it also acknowledges that Jews already dwell in a saving covenant with God. The Catholic Church must always evangelize and will always witness to its faith in the presence of God's kingdom in Jesus Christ to Jews and to all other people. In so doing, the Catholic Church respects fully the principles of religious freedom and freedom of conscience, so that sincere individual converts from any tradition or people, including the Jewish people, will be welcomed and accepted.
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The good Cardinal has it right...hopefully we will have him or someone like him for the next Pope. If Ratzinger is elected I'll become Orthodox. Moe
I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.
-Mohandas Gandhi
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Originally posted by moe:
The good Cardinal has it right...hopefully we will have him or someone like him for the next Pope. If Ratzinger is elected I'll become Orthodox. Moe I would say good, but I like the Orthodox too much. I wish dissenters would leave the Church. A sifting of the wheat and chaff is needed. Those who call our LORD a lier by saying that there are multiple ways to salvation need to be disciplined. Harsh perhaps; but that's the way I see it. Columcille
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Funny, but the documents of Vatican II seem to give us the hope that all men and women can hope for salvation, even those who may be outside the institutional Church. And what about those who may not be card carrying Catholics, but are baptized? What about them? You want to have heaven only for yourself and those who fit in your narrow little box. I prefer to think that God is bigger than that and wishes all to be saved, even those who cannot believe in His Church...sometimes because of the witness of closed and narrowminded folks who think they own God. Moe
I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.
-Mohandas Gandhi
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Good response, Moe and to the point. God keep us from those with the mentality of witchhunters!
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Originally posted by Columcille:
I wish dissenters would leave the Church. A sifting of the wheat and chaff is needed. Those who call our LORD a lier by saying that there are multiple ways to salvation need to be disciplined.
Harsh perhaps; but that's the way I see it.
Columcille You do raise a good question. Did the LORD lie to those who live according to the Covenant made with the Patriarch Abraham? There is one way to salvation - through the Mercy of a forgiving and just LORD. How to navigate the passage through this world to His Mercy seems to be the confusing part. The LORD will judge the dissenters. The wheat and chaff will be separated. Those who show charity and mercy to others will receive in kind. My most sincere prayers are thanksgiving for safe passage thus far and seeking guidance for myself, family, and friends on the directions in which we need to go. I believe in One Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. I do not presume to be able to define who's in and who's out. And I know the Lord is guiding His Church where He wants it to go. I trust the leaders of the Church to understand better than I what it all means. Glory to Jesus Christ !!! John Pilgrim and Odd Duck
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Once again this evening, I saw that bumper sticker on a car in the nursing home parking lot: Relax.....God is in control.
Another nurse's car has a beautifully colored bumper sticker that says: All who call upon the name of the Lord will be saved.
The walk through the parking lot becomes a type of scriptural "rosary" of quotes!!
I guess that a lot of ordinary working folks like to remind themselves (and others) of God's wondrous love for His creatures. There's hope for all of us. And then, to top it off, I looked up and Eastward and saw a flawless rainbow. [You go, Noah!!]
It's comforting to know that Christ outranks the Church. In Him is all hope.
Blessings!
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