www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West First Visit to Melkite Divine Liturgy

Hi everyone

My first post, and on my first visit to a Melkite Divine Liturgy.. perhaps this is auspicious!

I attended service last night (Monday, Jan 5th) at Our Lady of Perpetual Help in Worcester MA. It was a very small crowd (as one would expect @ 7PM on a Monday night), and I probably stuck out like a sore thumb, but I had a great experience.

My wife and I are currently contemplating attending this church. She is a '1980s lapsed Roman Catholic' (as I refer to her), and I was not baptised*. After some soul searching, a recent visit to Rome, and some conversations with Trappist monks, we think the Eastern Church might be a good home for us. So, a few questions - I'll have lots more as time goes on.

1. What is the process for an unbaptized adult to become baptized in the Melkite church? Is there an adult education program, etc?

2. I put an * next to my baptism status, as I may have gotten infant baptism at a Congregational church. My mother is a little unsure if she had my brother or I baptized - and even if I was, we never attended church. I usually describe my upbringing as 'areligious' - just without religion. How important is this to find out?

Thanks!
dave

Hi Dave,

Welcome to Byzcath!

I am so glad to learn about your spiritual pilgrimage!

I think it is important to find out if you were baptized and how. However, if this proves to be impractical, the Catholic Church may "conditionally" baptize you (I am not sure if this is actually practiced by the Melkite Church, I am speaking as a Roamin' Roman).

The rite is essentially the same, but the ministering cleric adds the phrase "If you are not baptized..." at the begining of the formula.

Conditional baptism is also used when you know someone was baptized, but there are serious doubts about the validity of that baptism.

That being said, the first step is to present yourselves to the pastor and get actively involved in the life of the parish community. Your pastor will guide you with the specifics of your process.

We'll be praying with you and for you.

Shalom,
Memo

Welcome to our fun Church - we actually manage to enjoy the Greek-Catholic Church most of the time.

Fr. Serge

Welcome Dave!

You are on an amazing journey for sure. Actually, it was easeir for Fr. Deacon Stan and myself to come into the Byzantine - Ruthenian actually - Church, because for me as a Southern Baptist, I struggled with the Roman Catholic stuff. My husband was PNC, but had gone to Roman Catholic School, so his records were a bit raveled ended also, but we got his straight, he just changed Rites. Don't ask me why the East made a difference over the West, but at the time it seem to really help.

Since I did not have my Baptismal papers and figured it would be hard to locate the church I was Baptised in, I received Conditional Baptism when our son was Baptised. That has been 29 years ago now. I am so very thankful too!

When you are walking in God's footsteps the desires of your heart and his will, all fall into place. Thanks be to God!

[i]When you are walking in God's footsteps the desires of your heart and his will, all fall into place. Thanks be to God! [/i]

Yes, my thoughts exactly! I did speak with Fr. Frechette after the service - and when I had explained my issues he said the same thing, that a 'conditional' baptism could be done. I posted here because I had no idea what that meant! :)

I'm in a similar boat, where the past records may simply be a bit difficult to track down. I didn't know how much of a difference it made - seems like it's not as big a deal as I initially thought it was.

I enjoyed the service immensely, and am rather sorry (due to my wife traveling and having two young kids) I'll be unable to attend this Sunday. I'll be back the following Sunday tho!

Hello:

Christ is Born - Glorify Him!

Being originally from New England. I was glad to learn that you had the opportunity to visit the Melkite Byzantine Catholic Church of Our Lady of Perpetual Help in Worcester. It is a beautiful Church. I was able to attend the Divine Liturgy there a couple of times.

May you enjoy all of the riches and treasures of the Byzantine Rite!

May Jesus the Lover of Mankind enrich your journey!

John Doucette

Dave,

Welcome to the forum. Our Lady of Perpetual Help in Worcester is a great parish. One of its sons, Father Archmandrite Charles (Aboody) was the first American-born Melkite ordained to the service of our Church in the US. Father Archimandrite Paul (Frechette), its present pastor, is a wonderful priest and has headed up the Eparchy's diaconate program for many years now.

Many years,

Neil

This is wonderful news, and I hope you and your wife will find a true spiritual home in the Melkite Catholic Church!

As a convert myself (from Lutheranism to Catholicism), I think the best thing you can do is to get to know your local church and your local pastor, and I'm sure the latter will be happy to answer your practical questions and guide you on your spiritual journey.

And if, as in the case of conditional baptism, you are unsure what the answer means, don't be afraid to ask more questions! The Church, like any other community, has its own "language" which it may take a while to learn, but there is no need to feel intimidated or to give up!

A "congregational" baptism is probably not a baptism at all.

I worked for some time for a Catholic diocese in my native country. Here they kept the pre-Vatican II practice of baptizing most converts at least conditionally (only those from Anglicanism and Lutheranism were received by Chrismation).

In the Eastern tradition, there's no "conditional baptism". Some Orthodox Churches baptize all converts, some don't, and I suppose Eastern Catholic Churches are still strict about this (but I might be wrong, because of influence from the modern Western Church).

In these years of false Ecumenism, fake baptisms of false religions are being accepted as real baptisms.

As "liturgical spontaneity" increasingly becomes more widespread, the Church must often face a difficult question: what did the minister say and do on the occasion of the original baptism? Often it can be very nearly impossible to establish the response to this question with any degree of certainty.

Fr. Serge

Dave,
One thing to do is to start attending the Melkite Church, introduce yourself to the priest and start taking some instruction. Start reading about the Eastern Churches, history, theology and spirituality along with your wife.

Get baptised into the Melkite Church and have your marriage regularised if your not married in the Latin Church.
At the time of the marriage your wife is then free to change to the Melkite Church by a simple intent to do so.

Hope all goes well. if you have other questions please feel free to PM me and I will try to answer.
Christ's blessings.
Stephanos I

Technically speaking, your wife will not need to transfer to the Melkite Church as she simply is Catholic. By default (if what I was told by a priest still holds true today), you being baptized as a Melkite is enough to unofficially make your wife a Melkite. Your baptism in the Melkite Church is also adequate enough to have your future generations baptised and married in the Melkite Church by default as well. Being Catholic in itself just allows your wife to be a part of the Melkite Church without transferring. It is, after all, a piece of paper which will make no sense unless she is planning to be ordained - which will never happen in the Apostolic Church. In short, for her, Catholic is Catholic.

As for you, I wish you well on your journey into the Melkite Church and I do pray that you do become a part of the Melkite Church.

Hi Collin,

I would double-check with the Pastor about Church Sui Iuris membership in this case. I am not sure that the canonical transfer by virtue of matrimony can be applied retroactively if the couple was sacramentally married before the baptism of one of the spouses.

I am not sure if Dave's marriage is canonically considered sacramental as of right now. If it is, the retroactive application I mentioned might be an issue.

If it is not sacramental yet, it will need to be come such shortly after his baptism and then what you mention would be absolutely true.

Sorry to sound so legalistic about one of God's life-giving mysteries, but if these issues were not relevant, we wouldn't have canon lawyers.

Shalom,
Memo

The Canons provide for a wife to make a decision regarding transfer at time of marriage. Unless there is some defect as regards the marriage that would actually require that they remarry, there wouldn't be an occasion for her to make that choice. However, should she wish to transfer, there is no reason to think that the request would not be immediately granted by the hierarchs involved.

Many years,

Neil

Well, assuming he's already baptised in the Melkite Church, and assuming that the marriage is deemed "invalid", wouldn't it still be simpler for a Latin "once-and-future wife" to get married in the Melkite Church to her Melkite spouse?