www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Pews

Ackkkkkkkkkk !! It irritates me to no end! Why can't we seem to get rid of the pews in our churches? Does anyone have an idea as to whether new churches that are being built are choosing to dispense with them?

Einar

Like most counterproductive things we do the cause is F-E-A-R. But I think you already know that.

CDL

I must be dense. Fear? Why? It seems to me that we should want to return to our traditions.

Einar

Because some folk would say we are not 'proper Catholics '

And I agree with you

Our Lady's Slave has hit it mostly. But I think its more than that. While we tend to be more courageous than some of our Latin brethren, we after all still use our own liturgy, mostly, our priests are sometimes intimidated by the people. I know that many complained even when father removed many of our pews.

An anecdote: When searching for the ancient Church I tried some Roman Catholic Churches. Over and over they reminded me of the Protestant Churches I used to pastor. Finally, I asked a priest "Do you use incense?" He said "Very rarely. The people don't like it." I never went back. Fear paralyzes. Until we get over it and fear only the Lord we won't be leaven in this sorry culture.

CDL

Hmmmm, I must not be very charitable but I don't care what other folks think.

I was checking out the web sight for St. Elias in Brampton Canada, it looks like an amazing parish. Seems to be very traditional.

http://www.saintelias.com/ca/index.php

Einar

Not to stir the pot, but CDL, your parish has pews. Unless they took them out since the last time I was there over the summer. The Liturgy was beautiful, there was Slavonic, and Father and the Deacon didn't skip anything (as much as I could tell.) I didn't think that they took away from the Liturgy, the parish that I went to in Indy also had pews yet everything was done like it should have been.

I know that pews aren't part of the Byzantine heritage, but Americans are westernized folk, they are either Protestant or have been in contact with Protestant services. Americans expect to sit at church. 100,000 people go to a stadium to sit down to listen to Joel Osteen every week.

As I wrote above, I am fully aware that pews are not part of the Byzantine heritage, but when in Rome...

I have had people tell me point blank we are not Catholic because we have married priests. I can understand the intimidation thing. Also,I hear you regarding the incense. I attended a Mass with my wife at her church and the priest actually apologized for having used to much incense and the next liturgy would be smokeless!

For me<no insult intended to our Latin brethren>There is not much beauty in the Latin liturgy, I feel like I am in a Protestant church.


Keep in mind I changed my canonical jurisdiction to the UGCC specifically because the Eastern Churches approach to ones spirituality works for me where as going down the Latin road did not.

I sometimes wonder if those of use who became Byzantine Catholics by choice aren't considered as whack jobs by some of our brethern.

Einar

That's why I said "some" pews. The liturgy cannot be fully done when the room is full of pews. Full bows are difficult and full prostrations are impossible in most churches when they are filled with pews.

I'm glad that our original poster has no fear but unless he is a priest he doesn't have to face the wrath of lazy Americans. I pray that he offers his courageous obedience to his priest when he wishes to implement restorations.

CDL

Dear Dr. Eric.

Actually we have chairs and yes they are still there though I would prefer they where not. However that is not a choice for me to make nor would I dare be defiant to my priest or deacon about the matter. Our liturgy is beautiful and proper, I am not sure why you are implying that I think it is not.

As far as your remark about Americans being westernized folk and they prefer to sit at church. Divine Liturgy is not to be compared with Joel Osteen ministries.

Also, your remark "When in Rome". We are not in Rome nor should we have to throw ourselves under the tires of Romes liturgical traditions. We are in Union with Rome, that doesn't sound like to me we are to give up our traditions.

Respectfully:

Einar

When in Rome referred to the famous quote. We are not in Rome, but America, no offense was intended.

No, the Divine Liturgy of Sts. John Chrysostom and Basil the Great are not Joel Osteen's wishy washy barely Christian lectures, yet he gets the butts in the seats. I wasn't comparing them, I was trying to get the point across that this is what Americans think "Church" is. Catholics are weird to America, the Orthodox and the Eastern Catholics of every Rite (Byzantine, Antiochian, Armenian, East/West Syrian, etc...)are even more strange.

That's why I said "some" pews. The liturgy cannot be fully done when the room is full of pews. Full bows are difficult and full prostrations are impossible in most churches when they are filled with pews.

I'm glad that our original poster has no fear but unless he is a priest he doesn't have to face the wrath of lazy Americans. I pray that he offers his courageous obedience to his priest when he wishes to implement restorations.

Dear Carson:

Father Mark has my obedience and if he should decide to implement restorations I will support him 100%. I will also support him 100% if he chooses not to do so. He is our Priest, there is no place for argument with him.

In Christ:
Einar

Einar,

I think the limitations of our situation is that to remove all of the chairs would make arduous any tear down and set up of the chapel. That is one of the hazards of borrowing space.

God willing, when we get our own space, we can explore such options. Annunciation Byzantine in Homer Glenn has done a very nice job with their Temple. It seems to have the right mix of seating space for those who need it, and room for standing, bowing, etc etc.

At Saint Michael's, we have chairs in a "U" shape at present. It seems to work for us, especially since so many of our members are unfamiliar with "pewless" liturgical environments.

God bless,

Fr. Deacon Daniel

I tend to look at the world through the lens of the Church and it it didn't occur to me to look at the American connection. Sorry I got so hot under the collar.

Also, I now understand the tack you took in trying to get your point across, thanks for the clarification. I tend to go into a fight mode when it comes to defending my church, something I need to work on.

In Christ:
Einar

No offense taken, I know that *we Vikings tend to go a little berserk now and then.

*My Irish roots are from the Normans who came to the Emerald Isle in 1066 and of course the Normans were Vikings who were "domesticated" when they sacked France in the 9th century.