www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Pews

Dear Fr. Deacon Daniel:

I do hope you do not feel I was being critical of Father Mark or yourself. I understand the limitations we have at St Nicholas and was speaking in general. What made bring this whole thing up was I was trying to check out different Eastern Catholic parishes in the DC area and ran into the web sight of the Ukrainian Catholic National Shrine of the Holy Family and I flipped out when I saw all of the pews.

St. Elias <Father Richards old parish I think> in Brampton Canada has done what looks like a very nice job if you look at their web sight.

Hopefully we will soon have our own parish home.

In Christ:
Einar

Thank you. I am part Norwegian and French<the Norman connection> so yeah I have got it bad.

Einar

Not at all! I agree with your main point. As a layman, I had approached Father Mark about the same idea. Now that I have torn down and set up many times (Fr. Mark and I did it on our own this past weekend), I see WHY it would not work right now!

God bless,

Fr. Deacon Daniel

I have a couple of practical questions for a pewless or chairless church.....

1. Do the people move as the priest/deacon incense the church or does the (con)celebrant move around the people?

2. Pews facilatate bowing, because there is a plenty of space in front of a person. It also allows a partial, if awkward, prostration. With people standing, do people "cluster" so as not to allow bowing or prostrations? A full prostration would require people to have at least 6-7 feet between him and the person in front and behind.

Most of our churches are oversized unless there is some special event or Sunday Divine Liturgies are reduced from two to one and the whole congregation is present.

We have heard the "ideal" of pewless churches,which sounds good, but does the ideal occur when the change is made? Do they make full prostrations? Do they refrain from "clustering." Or do you get complaints from the elderly (who constitute the majority)?

Fr. Deacon Paul

Father Deacon

I personally experienced what you referred to in your second point. Most people had less than an arms length between them and the person in front of them, and so despite having very few pews, very few people were doing prostrations.

Unless the people wish to be hit with a swinging thurible they move away from the wall towards the church interior, and bow as the priest or deacon censes them. It goes quite smoothly.

At prostration time, since most people do not have eyes in the back of the head, anyone standing in back of another person moves prudently to allow sufficient space for the prostration. It doesn't really take 6-7 feet in each direction; in my pre-arthritis days, when I would make prostrations before the Holy Table with the Royal Doors closed, it might have required a distance of 4-5 feet altogether.

People who have not been accustomed to attending a church without pews may require some instructions - but the parish priest can give such instructions without difficulty.

The startling objection I've sometimes heard when I've taken people to visit a church without pews is: "I didn't know where I was supposed to stand!" I've always been tempted to answer that one normally stands on the floor, but so far I've restrained myself.

Most "clustering" that I've encountered occurs with people, such as a family, who come to church together and will be leaving together. The parents show the children how and where to move so there is no particular problem.

Now please take the pews out, rub them well with kerosene, and burn them! If the wood is particularly good, recycle it to build something edifying and useful.

Fr. Serge

If they were already owned (a sunk cost) why in the world would you want to get rid of them? My Eastern parish was just beautifully remodeled. Our existing pews (from a former Protestant parish) were masterfully refinishes and I am deeply grateful for that.

Please allow me to display my own list of what I feel are the pros and cons of having benches. I would appreciate comments:

PROS: Allows those who are elderly and/or invalid to sit without the stigma of sitting in those side chairs; helps maintain control over children; provides a welcomed respite for the rest of us at points during the DL; facilitates kneeling (particularly if kneelers are present) outside of the DL; provides a more welcoming and expected environment to visitors;

CONS: Initial expense (unless they are already existing); more difficult to clean nave of church; facilitates prostrations;

Father,

I've always found it most beneficial to stand on the floor as well. I'm glad that they see it that way across the pond as well.

CDL

I guess that would depend on how you define "full of pews." My Eastern parish has quite a few (Saint Anne Byzantine in San Luis Obispo, CA) and rest assured the Divine Liturgy is "fully done" there.

I really must wonder when people take exception to something like pews/seating under the guise of "it's not part of our tradition."

Latinization was not only a bad thing, it was a ludicrous thing. Why demand that sanctus bells be rung and amices be worn (etc. etc. etc.)? Not only was it not part of the eastern tradition, the intrinsic value of the demands was zero. In essence, no good could come from them.

Pews/seating on the other hand have some very concrete, tangible benefits. To reject them out of hand because they are not part of one's tradition makes little sense to me.

I read where people take glee in ripping-out kneelers from Eastern Catholic parishes (I'm not sure why they leave the pews?) because it is not a "part of their tradition." If the cost is already sunk, why remove them? So the old and infirm cannot comfortably kneel during prayer outside of the Divine Liturgy? Just to "make a point?"

Sitting (even kneeling at times!) no no way contravenes the rubrics of the different liturgies. If cost is not an issue why remove pews/kneelers?

Our parish definitely needs seating; I've observed several elderly people who either get dizzy or have to rest their legs during Divine Liturgy.

I appreciate the input; we actually did take out a couple front pews a few years ago to give more room around the tetrapod.
Our pews aren't installed as tight as many churches and there is a fair amount of room for maneuvering.

Fr Serge, the advice about "standing on the floor" is excellent.

Fr Deacon Paul

I would move your control of children from the pro to the con category. I find banging on pews and the subsequent removal children much more distracting than seeing a child walk over freely to kiss an icon. Having a few pews for the elderly and infirm is very gracious and we should do that but unless ones entire congregation is elderly and infirm most of the floor space should be open so we can move about and worship.

I find I get sleepy when I sit. So standing is a God send.

CDL

I have never heard children "banging on pews" at Saint Anne's. Not ever. Then again not all parishes are like Saint Anne's.

I do my best to be well-rested for the Divine Liturgy on Sundays but it's not always easy as I arise very early to attend the 07:00 Mass before the Divine Liturgy. Nevertheless sitting and closing my eyes really helps me to focus.

While I can see the initial purchase price would deter some from purchasing church seating, I'm not sure why any church would remove it -- unless they had a ready buyer and needed the money I suppose.

My word. Pews, whatever else about them, can certainly provoke hot tempers!

If your Church has pews of any real value (such as those made of real wood, not veneers), recycle them and build something nice for your Church - say a standing shrine or two for patronal icons. If it's not worth the bother, use some of them for benches in the parish hall. Or sell them.

Fr. Serge

Why would we get rid of our pews? We just refinished them to match our remodeled church. As long as the purchase price is not an issue (in this case we already owned them) why would you not want pews/seating?