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Slavipodvizhnik #309891 01/19/09 01:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Slavipodvizhnik
Whether we want to believe it or whether we don't, pews (or rows of chairs) influence the way we think about the Church. Pews mold the way we think about the Liturgy itself. Pews affect the way we think about ourselves as Orthodox Christian lay people. Pews directly influence our spirituality and our behavior. The use of pews is shaping the future of Orthodoxy in North America.

Here are just some of the remarkable things a "mere addition" to Orthodox worship like pews accomplishes. A few of the following comments may come across as sarcastic. They are not. They are simply an open expression of what possibly a majority of lay people, and maybe even a few clergy, think in their "heart of hearts." These ideas have taken root among us in large part because pews have taught us to think them.

1) Pews teach the lay people to stay in their place, which is to passively watch what's going on up front, where the clergy perform the Liturgy on their behalf. Pews preach and teach that religion and spirituality is the job of the priest, to whom we pay a salary to be religious for us, since it is just too much trouble and just too difficult for the rest of us to be spiritual in the real world of modern North America. Pews serve the same purpose as seats in theaters and bleachers in the ball park; we perch on them (even during the Litanies which are the specific prayer of the People) to watch the professionals perform: the clergy and the professionally-trained altar servers, while the professionally-trained choir sings for our entertainment.

2) In teaching us to sit back and relax, pews give us the impression that any inconvenience, much less suffering no matter how slight, is foreign to the Christian life. Aren't you supposed to enjoy church and have fun as a Christian? Church is one of the few times we can take it easy and avoid real life. We don't come to church to work. (But doesn't the word liturgy mean precisely, "the work of the people"?) How many American Orthodox today have the "legs of steel" of old world Orthodoxy? Pews teach us to be spiritual wimps. "Could you not watch with me one hour?" asks the Lord. Would we who shrink from standing one hour, be willing to suffer for Christ, as millions of our Orthodox brothers, sisters, fathers and mothers in this very century have had to suffer?

3) Pews destroy the traditional feeling of freedom in church. With the installation of pews, we are no longer "bothered" with all the moving around which used to take place. You know, grandmothers lighting candies, children kissing icons, and the worshippers gathering around their priest like a family gathered about their father.

4) Pews fill up the open space in the middle of our temples, where the clergy and the people used to join together in a sort of sacred dance as the clergy, censing and processing, moved amidst the constantly changing configuration of the Laity.

Today this is reduced to the priest and servers marching in and marching out. How can we dance with pews on the ballroom floor? Pews transform worship for us into the merely formal and frosty affair that it has become in mainline American religion. The colder worship gets, the less attention we must pay to the unreal demands that religion, as our forebears knew it, puts on us. Certainly we can't allow our religion to become our way of life, if we expect to get ahead in the real world.

5) If children must be brought into the Church, at least they can play under the pews, where they won't be distracted by the ceremonies going on up front. Do kids understand all that anyway? Wouldn't they be better off in Sunday School coloring pictures and playing games, where they don't bother the adults while they sit back and enjoy the liturgical music concert?

6) Although pews are admittedly not a feature of the Orthodox liturgical tradition as our ancestors knew it, we're in America now, and here things are different. We need to be relevant. The more we can be just like the big and important religions in America, the more influence Orthodox Christianity will have. We can't afford to lose our big chance to mold American thought, and we will lose it if we cling to silly traditions with a little t, like pewless temples. And besides, is it not crystal clear that if we look too different we won't be able to achieve prestige, success and power in our society? Isn't that what life is all about?

7) Thanks to pews, on the weekdays of Lent we no longer have to endure those humiliating prostrations. Other [Christian groups] don't do that kind of thing in church, not even the Catholics. Why should we? And during funerals, pews spare us from gathering around the casket like we used to. Isn't the function of the modern funeral to shield us from the unpleasantness of death? The accepted modern American view is that we never really die—we just fade away.

These blunt observations are not meant to offend, but to hammer the point home vividly. The Liturgical Movement and the Orthodox liturgical tradition are both absolutely right: what we do in liturgical worship molds our thinking, attitudes and behavior. That's precisely why the issue of pews is so critically important. We hope this call for renewal will not be dismissed out of hand as "off the wall extremism," for this is not a "party" issue; it is a matter of life and death for American Orthodoxy. Pews are a spiritual carcinogen. Like Social Security in politics, pews may be an "untouchable" issue, but in spite of that, Orthodox America must begin renewal in this regard.

The pews in our churches are a much bigger problem than the use of foreign languages, for pews silently speak louder than words. Pews outshout the greatest of preachers and the most effective of teachers. Pews skillfully contradict the most excellent administrator and the most caring pastor. Pews drown out the words of our greatest scholars. A parish priest can brilliantly teach his flock about the place of the Laity as members in the priestly Body of Christ and co-celebrants in the Divine Liturgy, while the pews his people are sitting in, with the subtle dynamics of liturgical drama, insidiously whisper the very opposite. "Psst ... all you really need to do is pay your dues, call yourself Orthodox, watch the Liturgy, and leave the full-time practice of religion to the paid professionals." Neither unknown languages, nor choirs, nor even operatic compositions, could ever deprive the Laity of their active participation in the Divine Liturgy as members of the priestly Body of Christ. For they also serve who only attentively stand to pray. But when the Laity, as a mistaken gesture of kindness, were given pews so they could sit back, relax and watch the show, it was as if they had been deposed from their Sacred Ministry.

We're not calling for fanatic "pewoclasm." Liturgical renewal must not be divorced from loving pastoral concern. But we do need to face it: the use of pews and rows of chairs in our churches is a liturgical distortion which powerfully distorts our self-understanding as Orthodox Christians. We need renewal in the Orthodox teaching that we come to church not to be entertained but to work, to do together the Work of the People, the Holy Liturgy. Perhaps we could begin that renewal by removing several front rows of pews, inviting the faithful to stand before the iconostasis from the Great Entrance through Communion. Then let us progress back as fast as is pastorally feasible to the traditional practice of having seats only around the periphery of the church interior for the elderly, the infirm, for mothers with babies, for the weak and for the tired. That practice is not "merely traditional." It expresses a vital and fundamental aspect of Orthodox liturgical teaching.

From the Pascha, 1995 issue of DOXA


Alexandr

Thank you for this posting Alexandr!!!

Job #309894 01/19/09 01:55 AM
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I will endeavor to do everything possible to encourage the parishes afflicted with this malady to have firewood sales!

Alexandr

Slavipodvizhnik #309895 01/19/09 01:59 AM
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Three cheers for Alexandr and Father Deacon Diak.

CDL

Slavipodvizhnik #309909 01/19/09 05:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Slavipodvizhnik
You aren't getting it, are you? It really boils down to pews being an impediment to the full experience of Eastern worship. Please reread my post. And just as an FYI, Diak is Father Deacon Randolph a Ukrainian Catholic deacon. I don't think he is slurring anyone with the "Uniate" epithet.

Alexandr
I reject the erroneous notion that having properly placed seating is in any way an "impediment to the full experience of Eastern worship." You are stating that as if it's a proven fact and it's not -- it's opinion. What else can you offer?

The use of "uniate" is bad form, no matter who is using it.

Chuy #309911 01/19/09 06:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Chuy
Originally Posted by Orthodox Pyrohy
Pews=people sitting for most of the liturgy, save for a few times they stand (or kneel).
Nonsense. I would guess on any given Sunday we stand for 90%+ of the Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom and sit for the remaining 10 % We don't kneel at all on Sundays.

Nonsense? Hardly, I can take you to a myriad of Orthodox parishes that sit for most of the service in the pews. The Greek Catholic parishes around here sit too. Now neither Orthodox or the Greek Catholics sit the entire time, but there is a lot of sitting. I can take pictures from various churches and post them to prove it.

Re-read the article Alexandr posted, it is great.

Slavipodvizhnik #309914 01/19/09 07:23 AM
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Dear Aleksandr,

My thanks for this excellent posting. The only thing I can find to criticize is the negative comment about Social Security, of all things.

Fr. Serge

Chuy #309916 01/19/09 08:04 AM
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OK, I'll bite.

Lets fast forward to Great Lent.

The Prayer of St Ephraim the Syrian:
Господи и владико животѹ моемѹ, духъ оунынїѧ, небре жεнїѧ, срεбролюбїѧ и празднословїѧ ѿжεни ѿ мεнε.
Духъ же цѣломѹдрїѧ, смиренїѧ, терпѣнїѧ и любве дарѹй ми рабѹ твоемѹ.
Ей Господи Царю, даждь ми зрѣти моѧ согрѣшенїѧ, и еже не ωсуждати брата моегω, якω благословенъ еси во вѣки. Аминь

Each stanza accompanied by a full prostration.

Repeated many times in the course of the service.

Pray, does your parish empty out of the pews for each stanza and then file back in?
Your Lenten Vesperal services must last for days, just due to the sheer number of prostrations required! Your services must resemble lines in an amusement park with people lining up to do their prostrations! Or do we just "skip that part"?

Explain to me how does one make full prostrations in pews? Does one wiggle underneath the pew in front of them? Or is it more correct to shove ones legs back into the face of the person sitting behind oneself? Or maybe you do your prostrations sideways, facing North or South, maybe depending if you're male or female, to avoid embarrassment? You know, kind of wriggled in there between the pews. Just watch your head on those kneelers!

Or maybe your parish just stands outside in the parking lot and listen to the service on closed circuit tv, to better enable you to do your prostrations?

Or maybe, as I truly suspect, you just avoid the prostrations as impractical.

So much for returning to your Liturgical roots as your Bishop of Rome instructed you to do.

By the way, isn't it a sin to flagrantly disregard Papa Rimski?

Please reread the article I posted and list your objections.
I, as well as I am sure quite a few others would be overjoyed in reviewing your response for our edification and enlightenment.

Alexandr

Slavipodvizhnik #309917 01/19/09 08:06 AM
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Forgive me, I gave you our version of the Prayer of St Ephraim the Syrian. I believe the version in use by the Eastern Catholic Churches is:

Господи и владыко живота моегω, духъ оунынїѧ, небрежεнїѧ, любоначалїѧ и празднословїѧ ѿжεни ѿ мεнε.
Духъ же цѣломѹдрїѧ, смиреномѹдрїѧ, терпѣнїѧ и любве, дарѹй ми рабѹ твоемѹ.
Ей Господи Царю, даждь ми зрѣти моѧ согрѣшенїѧ, и не ωсуждати брата моегω, якω благословенъ еси во вѣки вѣковъ. Аминь

Alexandr

Slavipodvizhnik #309921 01/19/09 08:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Slavipodvizhnik
Whether we want to believe it or whether we don't, pews (or rows of chairs) influence the way we think about the Church. Pews mold the way we think about the Liturgy itself. Pews affect the way we think about ourselves as Orthodox Christian lay people. Pews directly influence our spirituality and our behavior. The use of pews is shaping the future of Orthodoxy in North America.

Here are just some of the remarkable things a "mere addition" to Orthodox worship like pews accomplishes. A few of the following comments may come across as sarcastic. They are not. They are simply an open expression of what possibly a majority of lay people, and maybe even a few clergy, think in their "heart of hearts." These ideas have taken root among us in large part because pews have taught us to think them.

1) Pews teach the lay people to stay in their place, which is to passively watch what's going on up front, where the clergy perform the Liturgy on their behalf. Pews preach and teach that religion and spirituality is the job of the priest, to whom we pay a salary to be religious for us, since it is just too much trouble and just too difficult for the rest of us to be spiritual in the real world of modern North America. Pews serve the same purpose as seats in theaters and bleachers in the ball park; we perch on them (even during the Litanies which are the specific prayer of the People) to watch the professionals perform: the clergy and the professionally-trained altar servers, while the professionally-trained choir sings for our entertainment.

2) In teaching us to sit back and relax, pews give us the impression that any inconvenience, much less suffering no matter how slight, is foreign to the Christian life. Aren't you supposed to enjoy church and have fun as a Christian? Church is one of the few times we can take it easy and avoid real life. We don't come to church to work. (But doesn't the word liturgy mean precisely, "the work of the people"?) How many American Orthodox today have the "legs of steel" of old world Orthodoxy? Pews teach us to be spiritual wimps. "Could you not watch with me one hour?" asks the Lord. Would we who shrink from standing one hour, be willing to suffer for Christ, as millions of our Orthodox brothers, sisters, fathers and mothers in this very century have had to suffer?

3) Pews destroy the traditional feeling of freedom in church. With the installation of pews, we are no longer "bothered" with all the moving around which used to take place. You know, grandmothers lighting candies, children kissing icons, and the worshippers gathering around their priest like a family gathered about their father.

4) Pews fill up the open space in the middle of our temples, where the clergy and the people used to join together in a sort of sacred dance as the clergy, censing and processing, moved amidst the constantly changing configuration of the Laity.

Today this is reduced to the priest and servers marching in and marching out. How can we dance with pews on the ballroom floor? Pews transform worship for us into the merely formal and frosty affair that it has become in mainline American religion. The colder worship gets, the less attention we must pay to the unreal demands that religion, as our forebears knew it, puts on us. Certainly we can't allow our religion to become our way of life, if we expect to get ahead in the real world.

5) If children must be brought into the Church, at least they can play under the pews, where they won't be distracted by the ceremonies going on up front. Do kids understand all that anyway? Wouldn't they be better off in Sunday School coloring pictures and playing games, where they don't bother the adults while they sit back and enjoy the liturgical music concert?

6) Although pews are admittedly not a feature of the Orthodox liturgical tradition as our ancestors knew it, we're in America now, and here things are different. We need to be relevant. The more we can be just like the big and important religions in America, the more influence Orthodox Christianity will have. We can't afford to lose our big chance to mold American thought, and we will lose it if we cling to silly traditions with a little t, like pewless temples. And besides, is it not crystal clear that if we look too different we won't be able to achieve prestige, success and power in our society? Isn't that what life is all about?

7) Thanks to pews, on the weekdays of Lent we no longer have to endure those humiliating prostrations. Other [Christian groups] don't do that kind of thing in church, not even the Catholics. Why should we? And during funerals, pews spare us from gathering around the casket like we used to. Isn't the function of the modern funeral to shield us from the unpleasantness of death? The accepted modern American view is that we never really die—we just fade away.

These blunt observations are not meant to offend, but to hammer the point home vividly. The Liturgical Movement and the Orthodox liturgical tradition are both absolutely right: what we do in liturgical worship molds our thinking, attitudes and behavior. That's precisely why the issue of pews is so critically important. We hope this call for renewal will not be dismissed out of hand as "off the wall extremism," for this is not a "party" issue; it is a matter of life and death for American Orthodoxy. Pews are a spiritual carcinogen. Like Social Security in politics, pews may be an "untouchable" issue, but in spite of that, Orthodox America must begin renewal in this regard.

The pews in our churches are a much bigger problem than the use of foreign languages, for pews silently speak louder than words. Pews outshout the greatest of preachers and the most effective of teachers. Pews skillfully contradict the most excellent administrator and the most caring pastor. Pews drown out the words of our greatest scholars. A parish priest can brilliantly teach his flock about the place of the Laity as members in the priestly Body of Christ and co-celebrants in the Divine Liturgy, while the pews his people are sitting in, with the subtle dynamics of liturgical drama, insidiously whisper the very opposite. "Psst ... all you really need to do is pay your dues, call yourself Orthodox, watch the Liturgy, and leave the full-time practice of religion to the paid professionals." Neither unknown languages, nor choirs, nor even operatic compositions, could ever deprive the Laity of their active participation in the Divine Liturgy as members of the priestly Body of Christ. For they also serve who only attentively stand to pray. But when the Laity, as a mistaken gesture of kindness, were given pews so they could sit back, relax and watch the show, it was as if they had been deposed from their Sacred Ministry.

We're not calling for fanatic "pewoclasm." Liturgical renewal must not be divorced from loving pastoral concern. But we do need to face it: the use of pews and rows of chairs in our churches is a liturgical distortion which powerfully distorts our self-understanding as Orthodox Christians. We need renewal in the Orthodox teaching that we come to church not to be entertained but to work, to do together the Work of the People, the Holy Liturgy. Perhaps we could begin that renewal by removing several front rows of pews, inviting the faithful to stand before the iconostasis from the Great Entrance through Communion. Then let us progress back as fast as is pastorally feasible to the traditional practice of having seats only around the periphery of the church interior for the elderly, the infirm, for mothers with babies, for the weak and for the tired. That practice is not "merely traditional." It expresses a vital and fundamental aspect of Orthodox liturgical teaching.

From the Pascha, 1995 issue of DOXA


Alexandr



This was a brilliant post!

There's a lot to consider and ponder here.

Thank you, Alexandr, for posting this.

-- John

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I'm just wondering aloud here, to any and all: What do you think would be the response if a Roman Catholic parish tried to go pewless...

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The Angels would rejoice.....


Alexandr

Slavipodvizhnik #309927 01/19/09 09:16 AM
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I'll add to Alexandr's prostrations smile

The Third Sunday of the Great Fast - Veneration of the Holy Cross

Our aisles will allow one person only in them [ not the 6 or 12 that fit in the pew ]- and that's normally me - no one else makes prostrations frown

Oh how I wish we had no pews

Last edited by Our Lady's slave; 01/19/09 09:17 AM.
Slavipodvizhnik #309938 01/19/09 03:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Slavipodvizhnik
Whether we want to believe it or whether we don't, pews (or rows of chairs) influence the way we think about the Church. Pews mold the way we think about the Liturgy itself. Pews affect the way we think about ourselves as Orthodox Christian lay people. Pews directly influence our spirituality and our behavior. The use of pews is shaping the future of Orthodoxy in North America.


Alexandr

An excellent post !! Thank you.

Einar

harmon3110 #309939 01/19/09 03:21 PM
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Originally Posted by harmon3110
I'm just wondering aloud here, to any and all: What do you think would be the response if a Roman Catholic parish tried to go pewless...

Well from what I understand pews in the Latin Church where a later development and while I am thinking about it, I don't remember seeing them in any of the big Cathedrals I went too while in Europe. So perhaps they ought to think about ditching them though you would probably have people bailing out right and left here in the states.

Einar

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Actually pews are something that crept into churches as a result of the Protestant Reformation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pew

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