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Hi all,

Good discussion.

I note that a lot has been said about comparisons/contrasts between the RCC-EOC relationship and the RCC-SSPX relationship.

I'm curious about what comparisons/contrasts could be made between the RCC-SSPX relationship on the one hand, and the relationship of the non-canonical Ukrainian Orthodox groups to Orthodoxy on the other?

In particular, should we be more "kindly minded" toward the UOC-KP (or UAOC) than toward the SSPX, and if so then based on what arguments? (Personally, I'm not drawing any conclusions, one way or the other, yet.)

Thanks in advance to all responders,
Peter.

On the basis that the SSPXers are they themselves, not their ancestors, the ones who have chosen separation....
-Daniel

So how should we treat those who switch from the Catholic Church to, say, the UAOC? Presumably the same as we would treat a SSPX-er over the age of 20 or so?

Logos Teen

Peter,

Of course we should be more kindly minded to Ukrainians for the simple fact of them being Ukrainian.


But on a serious note, the UAOC is a church of martyrs. I haven't heard of anyone dying trying to preserve the Tridentine Mass.

-uc

One more thought.

The West should deal with the Lefebvrites. And it seems that several Popes have defined their posistion on them. So that's that.

Shouldn't it be the goal of Eastern Christians to work for reunion in the East? Be it with the UAOC to the OCA to the Copts.

We as Eastern Christians here on this Forum should not worry about them. That is what always gets me... This is an Eastern Forum!! I understand questions on West and East relations and such, but please, let us look East. We should direct our prayers, energy, and time towards the reunification of the Eastern Churches.

I think we all can attest to the profund sense of spirituality, tradition, and holiness that comes from the Eastern Churches. Just imagine a united Eastern Chutch and the harvest that would yield. The thought of it makes me tremble.

Pope JPII has spoken about the Lefebvrites. Let's all give it a rest, seriously.

-uc

Dear friends, The Italian magazine Panorama had an article dated 12-8-05 that reported on a 5 hour meeting held in Rome between Bishop Fellay and Cardinal Hoyes. From what I can tell the bishop repeated what he had said in the meeting with the pope. He presented a newly published biography of Arb. Lefebrve to the cardinal. Vito

We should be treating all with kindness but at the same time dont give a false peace in our dealings with them. We who are under the Pope can't pretend to be in communion with people who reject his authority as Peter's successor.

Break away Orthodox groups in Ukraine or Macedonia dont claim union with the Pope. They are in another fold and will need to sort their problems out among themselves.

Oh if only the service books were the point of issue with the various groups who claim to hold to the uses of the Pre vatican II missal but it is not.

Dear UkrainianCatholic,
And yet, you can imagine what a SSPX-advocate* could say in reply: "The MP has defined his position on the UAOC & UOC-KP, but a great many Christians don't consider that to be the final word on the matter. Hence, why must the SSPX question be considered settled just because their respective Patriarch has spoken on the matter?"

God bless,
Peter.

* FYI, I don't consider myself an advocate of the SSPX. I'm just trying to present arguments which could be made in their favor.

I read this argument several times, carefully: "The MP has defined his position on the UAOC & UOC-KP, but a great many Christians don't consider that to be the final word on the matter. Hence, why must the SSPX question be considered settled just because their respective Patriarch has spoken on the matter?"

The answer, of course, is not complicated. The Christian East and the Roman Catholic Church do not work on the same set of ecclesiological principles. Neither the Moscow Patriarchate, nor the Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church, not the Ukraianian Orthodox Church - Kyiv Patriarchate recognize, or claim to recognize, that the Moscow Patriarchate has any authority over them. Still less do the Ukrainian bodies just mentioned assert that the Moscow Patriarch has either infallibility or universal jurisdiction.

The Society of Saint Pius X certainly claims to recognize that the Pope of Rome has authority (which they then refuse to obey) and asserts that the Pope is infallible in matters of faith and morals and has universal jurisdiction.

I trust this is reasonably clear.

Incognitus

The Tridentine Mass was codified at Trent, Teen, it is a form of the Mass St. Peter used in Antioch, but there have been novelities (the bell ringing during the consecration comes to mind.) Anyway the Latin Mass that most Romans think of has its official existance in Trent. It is a valid Mass but what ticks off the SSPX is the fact that they don't want to recognize Vatican II as innfallible on faith and morals. They also consecrated Bishops without Romes consent which would most definatly put them in schism.

Incognitus-

I think you hit the nail on the head.

Didn't the Serbian and Bulgarian Church get their autocephalacy and patriarchate in basically the same way as the UOC-KP is doing now? If so, that's definitely precedent.

I'm no church historian, but I can't think of any group of Latin bishops that canonically pulled off anything like what the SSPX is trying to do. That's precedent, too.

An interesting observation, Pavel, and quite a bold thing to say here on this Forum...

The Sedevacantists don't claim union with the Pope, either. I don't see your point.

Logos Teen

It is my view that Sedevacantists are but one faction of the coalition of many groups that seem to have the use of the old Latin Missal as their centrepoint after that they are all very different groups with all sort of of interests.

That they should be picking off our people in Eastern Europe is of worry to us, these people have too much 'other baggage' that our people dont need. There is a degree of comfort between Byzantine Catholics and the Orthodox that I dont think some Latins understand or are comfortable with.

The Archbishop Of Perth in Western Australia has just appointed a second priest to be chaplain to the Latin mass apostolate. The 2 priests will continue to function in all of the diocese of this vast state. Paralel to them are the separated groups.

This thread is giving me a headache.

I would love to see the same amount of energy and discussion directed towards OUR Eastern Churches.

After all, this is an Eastern Forum.

No, but here its bring up ecclesiastical problems in Ukraine and preserve the sacred name of the SSPX.

It's overkill.

Please people. Give it a rest.

How convenient.

-Peter [still in persona SSPX-advocate]