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Originally Posted by Stephanos I
I suggest a history lesson for you.
Yes there were six million Jews, but did you every endeavor to find out how many Christian were killed in Germany and outside of Germany during the war.
Stephanos I
PS And did you ever consider how many martyrs there were in trying to protect the Jews!

Dear Father Stephanos,

I am sure that John knows all that. He is a very well read, a professional, and an educated man. Thank you, however, for reminding us all of how horrible World War II was for everyone--I know that many Greeks died under the Nazi occupation of their country.

In Christ,
Alice

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Originally Posted by Latin Catholic
Apparently the chief rabbinate has changed its mind following the Pope's words during the general audience yesterday.

I do believe, though, that there was never any reason to question the Pope's position on the Holocaust or his commitment to positive relations with the Jews.

ISRAELI JEWS WELCOME POPE'S WORDS [ansa.it]

Benedict XVI: Never again the violence, never again the Shoah [youtube.com]

Dear Latin Catholic,

Thank you for this positive news.

In Christ,
Alice

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We all get fed up at times with these things.
Try to please the traditionalists and you have the jews at your throat. Try to please the jews and the muslims take it out on your faithful in arab countries. Try to please the muslims and the traditionalists throw a fit, and so on, and so on.

I suggest we do not despair. Neither the Pope nor the Church are harmed or damaged by extending olive branches in all directions. The words of Benedict XVI on Wednsday were a good example of being, like St. Paul "all things to all people" for the sake of Christ.

None of us needed to hear those words to know that the Pope loves the jewish people and considers the shoah a horrendous and abominable crime. But some jews apparently needed to hear those words once more, good on the Pope to have said them then.

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my thoughts: perhaps there is an over reaction on both sides of the issue. I am sorry that a segment of Jewish people are upset with the Vatican. I wish that they would recall that such Jewish scholars as Lapide and Rabbi Dalin remember what Pope Pius and many other Catholics did to help the Jewish people during the midnight of the twentieth century. just yesterday, on Shalom TV, I watched an interview with Shimon Peres (sp.?)who said as much. some of the posts seem to have a tinge of anti Semitism that do nothing to help here, and I say this in a word of caution. at the same time, playing the numbers game as to how many Jews were slaughtered is plain stupid. if one, I repeat one Jew, (or anyone else for that matter) was slain because of what he or she was and not did, it is genocide. my late Prussian granny had to deal with this after the War. she was raised in Harlem, which at the time was mainly German and Jewish, and had many Jewish friends. she also had a third cousin who married a German nobleman who was implicated in the plot to bump off Hitler in July 1944. the nobleman was executed, my Grandmother's cousin was beaten to death by the Gestapo at Ravensbruck. if the Nazis would treat an Aryan like that, what was their hesitation about doing what they did to untermenschen? the Holocaust happened, deal with it.as for Granny, if you were smart,you did not mention Hitler's name in her house.still, she was not consumed with self hate. as Grandpa made sure we had Native American Thanksgiving (he was Shinnecock with some Knickerbocker Dutch ancestry), Granny had German Christmas. German was the second language in their home, and weekends there for us kids could consist of a visit to the reservation on Saturday, and on Sunday, listen to German language cultural broadcasts on the radio.
also remember that the Holy Father had to deal with the issue as a German, think it's easy? he caught a lot of flack for being in the Hitler Youth. hey, that was the law. Germany was not the United States of Kumbayah where if you didn't feel like doing something, it was cool with the government.I dated a girl who converted to Judaism years ago. her mother was a second degree Mischlinge (sp?). in her native Hesse, she was enrolled in the Bund Deutscher Maedl. she kept her mouth shut and did the program with her Aryan counterparts. it was that or the camps because of her Jewish grandparent. Joe Ratzinger could have easily wound up in a camp for disobeying the law.
so, let's be a bit more careful here, okay?
Much Love,
Jonn

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I posted this in the SSPX thread earlier today; I thought it would be appropriate here, too.

-- John



Originally Posted by Our Lady's slave
I'm not even sure where that horizon is - certainly it's not in view

Originally Posted by harmon3110
Well, there is hope on the horizon:

Pope expresses hope for full communion with traditionalist society [catholicnews.com]

Pope condemns Holocaust denial [catholicnews.com]

Pope says Christian unity can prove that division isn't inevitable [catholicnews.com]

The last lines from that last story leave me feeling better than I have in days:

Quote
Addressing the Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican and Protestant bishops, clergy and laity who participated in the prayer service, the pope said that as long as all Christians seek unity in faith their different spiritualities, rituals and customs do not have to be divisive.

"In that way our diversity will no longer be an obstacle that separates us, but a richness in the multiplicity of expressions of a common faith," he said.


-- John

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Originally Posted by Alice
Originally Posted by Stephanos I
I suggest a history lesson for you.
Yes there were six million Jews, but did you every endeavor to find out how many Christian were killed in Germany and outside of Germany during the war.
Stephanos I
PS And did you ever consider how many martyrs there were in trying to protect the Jews!

Dear Father Stephanos,

I am sure that John knows all that. He is a very well read, a professional, and an educated man. Thank you, however, for reminding us all of how horrible World War II was for everyone--I know that many Greeks died under the Nazi occupation of their country.

In Christ,
Alice

Thank you, Alice !

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Originally Posted by Stephanos I
I suggest a history lesson for you.
Yes there were six million Jews, but did you every endeavor to find out how many Christian were killed in Germany and outside of Germany during the war.
Stephanos I
PS And did you ever consider how many martyrs there were in trying to protect the Jews!

Father, bless !

In answer to your first question, the estimates which I have read are between 5-9 million non-Jews who were killed in the Holocaust; those were in addition to the 6 million Jews who were murdered.

As for your second question, I think the number is known only to God who tried to help and who were martyred during the Holocaust.

As for Christian martyrs, I am particularly impressed with Fr. Engelmar Unzeitig. With only one year out of the seminary, he was arrested for denouncing the Nazis. For the remaining four years of his earthly life and priesthood, he was a prisoner in the Nazi concentration camp at Dachau. He ministered to people as best he could. Eventually, he and several other priests died taking care of victims of typhoid whom not even the SS would approach. Just a few months later, the camp was liberated. His cause is up for canonization, and there is a particularly good novena in his honor here. [downloads.dcms.kirchenserver.org]

There is also a good discussion of other martyrs under the Nazis in the book, "Catholic Martyrs of the 20th Centyry." (It is available from sellers through Amazon [amazon.com] .)

-- John

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This link has a good breakdown of deaths in WWII.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties

The German resistance often gets overlooked.

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