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Maybe it doesn't matter to the average Ukrainian "Joe", but it certainly matters to the other Orthodox Chruches.

If the UGCC, the UAOC and the UOC-KP unites and establishes communion with Rome, they will be out of communion with the other Orthodox Churches.

Therefore, this Ukrainian Church will not be the largest Orthodox Church in the World.

In the eyes of the world's 15 Autochephalous and 5 Autonomous Orthodox Churches, it won't be Orthodox at all.

Unless communion is restored between the RCC and the Orthodox Church as a whole, beeing in communion with both is simply impossible!

Christian

Dear Christian,

The point I'm making is that if ALL the Ukrainian Orthodox Churches (UGCC, UAOC, UOC-KP, UOC-MP) unite into what would be the single largest 'pseudo-Orthodox Church', with a government strongly backing this new entity, then it will occur.

Your statements regarding non-recognition of the new super sized Ukrainian Orthodox Church by the Ecumenical Patriarch, or the Muscovite Patriarch, or 'other' Orthodox Churches is exactly what I mean when I said that there is "strong autocephaly movement throughout Ukraine". After centuries of being pushed and shoved by foreign theism overseers, the Ukrainians are ready to do things on their own. The Ukrainian Christians have in many ways adopted the 'pre-988 Orthodoxy' philosophy of the pagan 'Run Vira' sect.

They will go it alone, and call themselves whatever they want, including possibly the 'Kyivan Orthodox Church in communion with Rome'. If the Orthodox Churches of the Czech Republic, or Cyprus, or Mozambique do not recognize it immediately - then I think the Ukrainians will just not care :p . That is the same approach they took to declaring Ukraine independant 13 years ago. Dire predictions and "simply impossible" statements were made then also. .

Over time, Apostolic and evangelical churches will recognize the Kyivan Church as being 'Orthodox'. Then it will be a question of establishing communion with the EP. He would be very silly to let the new entity just 'hang there'.

Hritzko

Amado,
if you knew me. That aint no option!
Stephanos I
faithful and loyal son of the Petrine Apostolic See of Rome

I think that the EP might be more ameniable to recognising a Ukrainian Church than people give it credit for. Certainly, I think Athens would support Moscow as the Archbishop has very closed relations with the Patriarch. As we all know, the EP has been increasingly attacked from many quarters and the pressure between it and Moscow is quite high. A tad like my muffins were yesterday.

Anton

Dear LatinTrad:

My comment about the UGCC breaking her communion with us (Rome) stems from the numerous posts of our Ukie brothers that they want to be "independent" and they can do it "alone," conveniently forgetting the UGCC belongs to the Catholic Communion and, therefore, their interest IS the interest of Rome.

Just injecting some reality to the situation.

Amado

Anton, I agree that there may be more flexiblity with the EP than others.

He did recognize the UOC in North America which was descended from the UAOC, after all. That's a pretty big step in the right direction.

I understand what you say, I wonder what qualifies as being in communion with the Orthodox church as a whole. Is there some kind of consensus as to what that would entail?

To state the question another way, I would like to know which of the Orthodox churches, taken together, would constitute the church as a whole.

The reason I ask is that I could imagine a case where all of the Patriarchs but one (any one) would agree to shared communion, or possibly some of the smaller Orthodox churches would object, such as ROCA or the Milan Synod.

I am beginning to believe that no such agreement is possible.

Michael