www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall What they think about us here...

Glory to God for every bit of suffering we endure in His name - be it mental, physical or spiritual. Glory to Him who gives us faith and power to continue our march on His path. Glory to the Shepherd who never forgets His lost sheep.


> They claim that Christians and the Church in specific do not admit that the Holocaust had ever happened. That's why Channel 10 on one of its most popular satiric shows decided to explain to Christians what Zion thinks of Christianity on national television.

Those who do not know yet, ALL CONTENT on Israeli TV goes through censorship - so the government controls everything that goes on national TV. Moreover, anti-Jewish and anti-Zionist content are outlawed - but Christianity, as many of us here know first hand, can and should be mocked over and over till people here actually believe what they see on TV.

The content and movie (Article - Arabic, Show - Hebrew):
http://www.alarab.co.il/view.php?sel=00118296
(I translated some parts of the parts - the way things were said were not sarcastic, but demeaning)

"They tell you that Holy Mary [our Holy mother] was a virgin, but as we know this is a lie; proof to that is that when John the baptist stuck two fingers in her waist she did not jump. In addition, had she been a real virgin she wouldn't have shown sex toys at a [show].... She got pregnant at the age of 15 from one of her classmates ... and she was left by her parents in a football court to end up having spend the night in a hotel with the Canaan football team..."

I will not go on - as I think this manuscript is overwhelming
as it is.

This, by the way, is only the second part of a daily series on "The Truth About Christianity" - in the last episode the claim was Jesus did not walk on water because he was too fat and Sunday is a holy day as it is Jesus'-on-diet day.


Well -
I guess this lent is going to be challenging indeed!

Lord have Mercy,
elijah

What could you expect from a country that passed an anti-missionary law on Christmas Day 1977 making it a crime punishable by up to 5 years in prison for any Gentile attempting to proselytize a Jew away from there religion.

Eli,

Thank you for sharing this with us. I know it can be very hard at times to love your enemies.

This came to mind immediately:

Peace,
Deacon Richard

Eli,

God bless you and I keep you all in my prayers. Funny how the U.S. has such a lopsided pro-Israeli foreign policy and how there are even fundamentalist protestant Christians in the US raising money for Israeli families; while they totally ignore their Christian brothers and sisters.

We have to understand that modern Israel is not the true Israel.Their hatred and venom comes from the rejection of God's revelation in Jesus Christ. St. Paul is very clear that a veil has been put over their eyes and so they now walk blindly, believing that they can attain righteousness through the works of the law, rather than through faith in Christ (see Romans 9-11).

This is why modern Israel and modern Judaism are not ancient Israel. The Church is the true Israel and the Jews will be grafted back into the covenant of grace when they finally accept Jesus Christ as their messiah. This is why we need to continually pray for the Jews that their eyes will be opened and that they will repent of their unbelief and finally embrace their messiah. We must be patient and many of us must endure persecutions at the hands of the world. God bless all of you who are suffering persecution and may God keep your hearts in peace and love. God bless.

Joe

P.S. I am NOT anti-semitic, nor anti-Jew. In Christ there is now no Jew or Greek. But we must distinguish being a Jew in the biblical sense from being a follower of Judaism. St. Paul is very clear that the true Jews (the elect of God) are those who have faith in Christ and that there is no salvation in trying to keep the Law.

Do you encounter any troubles, being a Christian?

Brother Joe, thank you for your prayers, it does bring me comfort.

Dear Terry,
I guess you mean the following:
1- Private Christian schools do not receive proper funds form the government like private Jewish schools. We are obliged to teach a certain (dictated) syllabus which, not surprisingly, has nothing to do with Christian history/heritage/identity/teaching etc. On the other hand we are obliged to study Jewish history and teachings from the Zionist perspective.
2- Politics are forced into the Church even to the extent of "who will last longer as a Bishop," they even have a book documenting this issue (among many other things) called "Good Arabs, Bad Arabs" (Hebrew). Old Churches do not receive governmental funds to be renovated even when they are declared as "historical buildings" (synagogues and even mosques do receive renovation/expansion/building funds). In the ministry of Religions there are no Christian representatives (Muslims have so do Jews of course) and no governmental funds is therefore passed to Christians. Offensive actions are constantly repeated to Church property and Churches - only a few weeks ago the Government tried to cut off the last standing building (a Church) in a village that was diminished back in 48 called Eqreth.
3- Christian villages are being slowly stuffed with non-Christians and the law there is maintained by the local non-Christians. That is how we witness at least one big Muslim or Druz riots against Christians (usually over very silly things) which the government and police blink an eye on and does not interfere until too late.

This is only part of the systematic "troubles" we endure.
Needless to say that the movie reflects the nature of the non-Christians here (with exceptions!) and the way they see us.

In my discussions with many Melkites, especially those who were from Palestine, I learned that the Israelis have systematically taken measures to kick out the Christians, leaving only Muslim peasants, who are inclined to violent reaction. According to my friends, the Israelis want the Muslims there to drum up sympathy from the U.S. Also, a real problem here in the U.S. is that most Christians are evangelicals and they do not see Catholics and Orthodox as being true Christians and brothers and sisters in Christ. At the same time, these Christians believe that one must unconditionally support the modern secular state of Israel as if they were the chosen people. You will never hear any of this on U.S. news shows of course.

We eastern Christians, Orthodox and Catholic, need to support our brothers in the holy land and we need to step up to the plate and educate Americans about the real state of things in Israel, especially the systematic persecution of Christians and the terrorist tactics of the Israeli military.

Joe

Dear Joe,

I agree - I mentioned that in my third point - I have many points to add - but I didn't want to whine too long I guess.

Respects,
Eli

Interesting and thought provoking, Joe. I have read and heard similar things from members of the Eastern Orthodox and Eastern Catholics recently. I will have to think on this.

-- John

The U.S.'s unqualified support for Israel, from both conservative and liberal circles, is quite troublesome to me. As earlier posters mentioned, it seems to based off of a certain type of Protestantism that sees the modern Jews as somehow still living withing a binding covenant with God, as His Chosen People, something I find quite contradictory to Sacred Scripture and Holy Tradition.

In the end, I don't like it for exactly that reason: it is based off of a lack of (or misunderstanding of) a basic Christian belief that the Old Covenant is null and void, if you will, and that in Jesus Christ there is neither Jew nor Greek.

Alexis

Shlomo Lkhoolkhoon,

Here is some interesting news for the group.

Fush BaShlomo Lkhoolkhoon,
Yuhannon

Catholics Decry Anti-Christianity in Israel
Protest "Horrible Offenses" on TV

JERUSALEM, FEB. 19, 2009 (Zenit.org).- Leaders of the Catholic Church in the Holy Land are condemning the "revolting attacks" against Jesus Christ and the Virgin Mary, broadcast by Israel's Channel 10 television.

A joint communiqué issued Wednesday explains, "In these days, during a night show on Channel 10, a series of horrible offenses were launched against our faith and consequently against us, Christians."

The communiqué was signed by the Latin patriarch of Jerusalem and the Franciscan custos of the Holy Land, among others.

"The show directed its attacks to the holiest figures of our Christian belief in an attempt, as the director of the show himself specifically declared, to destroy Christianism," the communiqué stated.

"Channel 10 was used to desecrate the holiest figures of Christianism offending hundreds of thousands of Christian Israeli citizens and of many millions of Christians all over the world as well," the Catholic leaders lamented.

Channel 10 began its activities in 2002.

The Catholic leaders contended that the program was "a symptom of greater problems disturbing the society, such as intolerance, refusal to accept and respect the other and inherent hatred."

And they said that the program comes in a series of attacks on Christians in Israel over the years. They cited an occurrence from a few months ago, when "copies of the New Testament were publicly burned in the yard of a synagogue in Or Yehuda."

The statement expressed appreciation for the many Christians, Muslims and Jews who "were themselves shocked and appalled, and expressed their dismay and protest at this fact."

The leaders contended that "such programs have nothing to do with freedom of expression, art and entertainment. They can only work against national integration and harmony in our society."

Well stated

Metropolitan-Archbishop Joseph (Raya) of holy memory was calling this problem to our attention from the time of his consecration to the episcopate. May his prayers continue to assist us.

Fr. Serge

Shlomo Elijah,

I believe that my post Catholics Decry Anti-Christianity in Israel should be merged here. What really gets to me is that our fellow Catholics and Orthodox also ignore us, and we share the same traditions.

Of course when we oppose Israel, we are anti-Semites (which is funny since we are Semites), but we need to press on.

Fush BaShlomo,
Yuhannon

Shlomo Lkhoolkhoon,

To follow up with this point here is what Haaretz [haaretz.com] has to say.

Fush BaShlomo Lkhoolkhoon,

Survey: Most Jewish Israelis do not want more churches in Jerusalem

By Nadav Shragai

The vast majority of Israeli Jews does not have negative feelings toward Christians living in Israel, but nearly the same proportion believes the state should not allow land to be used for constructing new churches in Jerusalem, according to a study published Thursday.

The survey, carried out by the Jerusalem Institute for Israel Studies and the Jerusalem Center for Jewish-Christian Relations, 74 percent of respondents do not see Christians as "missionaries," and 76 percent are not bothered by encountering a Christian wearing a cross. Furthermore, 41 percent believe Christianity is the closest religion to Judaism, with Islam coming second at 32 percent.

However, the study suggested that most Israeli Jews are considerably less tolerant when Jerusalem is concerned. Only 50 percent of the sample agreed that Jerusalem was central to the Christian faith, and 75 percent believe the state should not allow Christian organizations to purchase land to construct new churches in the city. The survey noted sharp divisions between secular and religious Jews. Eighty percent of secular Jews believe they are allowed to enter churches, and even visited churches when abroad, while 83 percent of religious Jews believe visiting churches is forbidden. Seventy-eight percent of religious Jews believe Christianity is "idol worship," while 66 percent of secular Jews disagree.

Furthermore, 56 percent of secular Jews believe that Christian soldiers in the Israel Defense Forces should be allowed to use the New Testament for giving the oath, but 62 percent of religious Jews think only the Torah should be used.

The survey was conducted by Dr. Amnon Ramon among a sample of 500 men and women, believed to be representative of the adult Jewish population within Israel.

Associated Press is reporting that the Vatican has formally complained to the Israeli government about the show broadcast by a privately-owned TV station.

The Israeli government promised to prevent any further broadcast of the program, which is iffy considering there is no censorship over private TV stations except where the "security" of Israel is concerned.

Amado

I'm thinking. I'm thinking.

Why is the article in Arabic if it is for a Jewish audience. Who writes these programs?

Why would the Jewish state wish to offend their best supporters?

CDL

Others may be in the business of being professionally offended by every imagined slight or derogatory remark, but as Christians we are held to another, higher standard.

Shlomo Carson,

You wrote: Why is the article in Arabic if it is for a Jewish audience.

There is a very easy answer. The vast number of Catholics, as well as other Christians, are Palestinian in Israel; and therefore the language the Church communicates in, in Israel is Arabic.

You go on to say: Who writes these programs? There are a number of anti-Christians in the Middle East in general, and especially in Israel.

The core of what you want to know is: Why would the Jewish state wish to offend their best supporters?. First the vast majority of Christians in the U.S. are ignorant of Israeli attitudes towards Christians. Second, for those Christians that believe in the Rapture, Israel can do no wrong. It is like how some white supremist voted for Obama to further along the race war that is suppose to occur in the near future in this country. Lastly, Israel has some of the best publicists in America, and they work to make sure that the ugly side of Israeli society is not well known here in the States.

Fush BaShlomo,
Yuhannon

Shlomo Lkhoolkhoon,

Here is a followup in Haaretz [haaretz.com] on this very same issue.

Fush BaShlomo Lkhoolkhoon,
Yuhannon

Vatican irked by 'blasphemous' Virgin Mary TV spoof in Israel

By Jack Khoury and The Associated Press

Tags: Holocaust, Pope, Israel News

The Vatican said Friday it has formally complained to the Israeli government about an Israeli TV show that ridiculed Jesus and Mary in an offensive act of intolerance.

The Israeli foreign ministry said the segment wouldn't be shown again and that its host, well-known Israeli comedian Lior Shlein, had apologized.

In the program, Shlein sarcastically denied Christian traditions - that Mary was a virgin and that Jesus walked on water - saying he was doing so as a lesson to Christians who deny the Holocaust.

It was a reference to the Vatican's recent lifting of the excommunication of a bishop who denied 6 million Jews were killed during World War II. The rehabilitation sparked outrage among Jews.

A statement from the Vatican press office said its representative in Israel complained to the government about the segment, which was broadcast recently on private Channel 10, one of Israel's three main TV stations, during Shlein's late-night comedy talk show.

In the clip, the Vatican said, Mary and Joseph were ridiculed with blasphemous words and images that amounted to a vulgar and offensive act of intolerance toward the religious sentiments of the believers in Christ.

In the show, Mary is said to have become pregnant at 15, thanks to a schoolmate. It said Jesus could never have walked on water because he was so fat he was ashamed to leave the house, let alone go to the Sea of Galilee with a bathing suit.

Foreign Ministry spokesman Yigal Palmor said the ministry approached Channel 10 based on the papal nuncio's complaints, and was told the segment would not air again. Palmor said the station's legal adviser had also already sent a letter of apology to an attorney who represents a Christian group who had been offended by the segment.

Palmor said Shlein apologized live on Wednesday, and said he didn't mean to offend anyone.

The clip was a sarcastic response to the Vatican's rehabilitation of Bishop Richard Williamson, who said in an interview broadcast on Swedish state TV that no Jews were gassed during the Holocaust and that only 200,000 or 300,000 Jews were killed.

The Vatican's rehabilitation of Williamson sparked outrage that only abated after Pope Benedict XVI met with Jewish leaders at the Vatican last week.

During his audience, the German-born pope issued a strong denunciation of anti-Semitism and said it was unacceptable for anyone - particularly a clergyman - to deny or minimize the Holocaust.

The Vatican has demanded that Williamson, a member of the traditionalist Society of St. Pius X, recant before he can be admitted as a bishop in the Roman Catholic Church. On Thursday, the government of Argentina, where Williamson had been living, ordered him expelled within 10 days. It cited an immigration problem but also said his comments about the Holocaust had profoundly insulted Argentina, Jews and all of humanity.

The British-born Williamson had already been removed as director of the society's La Reja seminary. He has apologized for causing distress to the pope but has not recanted. He has said he would only correct himself if he is satisfied after a review of the evidence, but has said that would take time.

And here are some of the comments on the Haaretz site.

Title: Jesus NEVER existed, Nazareth did NOT exist,
Name: JMK
City: NY State: NY

there NO perfidious Jews to hate, there was no birth, no life, no torture, no death, no miracle, no parable, no nothing, all that is known is in the New Testament and the NT is 100% fiction and forgery and plagairism. All of is MYTH. What they the Christians have to worry about is all the killing they did for the reality of nothing, except social control and domination.

Title: Vatican irked?
Name: Christopher
City: Boston State: Mass

Pedophile priests. Openly antisemitic Priests promoting violence against Jews. A continued promotion of the charges of deicide against the Jewish people. That`s the present. Then we look in to the history of the Church, which included centuries of genocide against the Jews, Inquisitions, and mass expulsions, all in the name of the Church. And they are "irked" by sarcasm? Nothing like holy rollers and their self-righteous indignation.

Title: TV show was wrong
Name: Irina
City: Montreal State: Canada

I think that the show? creators should apologize and never do such things again. Jokes about religion are inappropriate, at the least.

I agree, a skeptical mind can always find something strange/ questionable / illogical in ANY religion scriptures (including Torah), so what? Let theologists discuss the details.

The main point now is that Christianity IS a religion of peace, and - unlike Islam -preaching tolerance, compassion and love for everyone. Christians are our friends, our allies. I believe that Christianity and Judaism should unite to defeat the world enemy - extremists and terrorists.

Why to dig out differences and mock them?

Title: Gee - The hate went both ways my friend
Name: American

The first people to persecute the Christians were the Jews. From the very beginning the Jews hated the Christians, the only difference was that Christianity was (and is) far more inclusive than Judaism so it spread rapidly and got into power - giving one side the power to express that hatred while the other having to take it. Had the tables been turned the Jew would have done the same, I mean, just 60 years ago they were treated like animals by the europeans and now they have adopted that mentality (Lieberman) and practice it daily with the Palestinians.

It is fine if you don`t care if the Vatican gets irked, its your freedom, but we too must have the freedom to irk the jews, by saying things about the holocaust or about the protocols of zion, etc without infringing on our right to do so or getting "irked"...remember, the Jews could always have left Europe, they were merely guests. [/b]

Title: Its always interesting
Name: Dave Duncan
City: Washington State: DC

to hear people who equate any criticism of Israel with antisemitism turn around and criticize other religions and whole peoples in such vitriolic terms. Catholics are not enemies of Jews. Why do you want every other group to be your enemy?

Title: Come on!
Name: Ben Zion
City: Montevideo State: Uruguay

Does a country need to ask for apologies for a TV show because it could have irked the Vatican? What about any Madonna concert elsewhere? Does Madonna regret for singing Like a Virgin. What about the British pop music of the 80s and 90s? Songs are still offensive for the Vatican. Vatican is a state that likes to find small tiny things in other countries, in their societies, and later plays a kind of victims role because of any offensive nonsense. In the very end, that´s a kind of political cheap extortion.... that sells newspapers. But Vatican does not rule other lands, other people`s mind... If the state of Israel has the need for any apology coming from the Vatican for any tiny offensive nonsense, I guess, the Vatican would have to take more than 2000 years to end it up.

This is the programming about which our brother, Eli, has spoken on a thread elsewhere on the forum.

Many years,

Neil

The article is taken from an ISRAELI online ARABIC newspaper that demonstrated on the show (the article is against the show and obviously written AFTER the show). Sorry I was not clear before that.
Please watch the show (linked in the site - and youtube is already fed with it) - IT IS IN HEBREW and was written for HEBREW audience mainly.

Why would the Jewish state wish to offend their best supporters?
Ask them!
It is not the first nor the last time.
Please read the points I presented and you could see that this show is a very small offensive act.


Peace,
Elijah

The last time I checked Arabs were Semites! Any who is opposed to Arabs or Jews, in my judgment, is Anti-Semitic!!!In a word, A Jew, who dislikes Arabs is Anti-Semtic or vice versa. I am redefining the word.

My friend,
You are stating the obvious
Elijah

كل من اعترف بي قدام الناس, يعترف به ابن الإنسان قدام ملائكة الله. ومن أنكرني قدام الناس, ينكر قدام ملائكة الله (لوقا 13 : 8-9)

ואני אומר לכם, כל המודה בי לפני בני אדם גם בן-האדם יודה בו לפני מלאכי אלהים. והמכחש בי לפני בני אדם יכחש בו לפני מלאכי אלהים. (הבשורה על-פי לוקס פרק יב : 8-9)

And I say to you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God. 9 But he that shall deny me before men, shall be denied before the angels of God. (Luke 12:8-9)



http://haifanet.co.il/index.php?cat_id=41&art_id=976#Scene_1

===========

Yesterday after the evening mass we decided to march...
To me, this was a heart-warming moment - just on time to give me the right push for the lent.
Even while it was pouring rain, Christians marched!
I was holding the cross with the flag, the moment they started with "Hail Mary" I could not help a tear sliding on my cheek with rain drops to complement the beautiful prayers of hundreds said as one.

Glory to God who gave all of us the faith and will to march - "Ya rab el qowat kon ma3na"

The Lord is with us all,
Elijah

While Hebrew newspapers continue to defend the stance of the demeaning "satiric" show and even attacking Christians for demonstrating against it, non-Christian Israeli Arabic Newspapers continue to represent the Christian voice in the HolyLand.

http://www.alarab.co.il/view.php?sel=00119478
http://panet.co.il/online/articles/1/2/S-180608,1,2.html

By the way, Israeli Hebrew Newspapers did not even give any special attention to the Official Vatican statements on the issue.

Because they probably take those American evangelical Protestants as ignorant buffoons. Seems to me, for good reason.

Alexis

In the fundamentalist-dispensationalist theology that undergirds Zionism, it is taught that support for the nation of Israel must be unconditional. Anyone who unconditionally supports Israel will be blessed by God. Anyone who does not support Israel will be cursed. These fundamentalists see the establishment of Israel and the rebuilding of the temple as essential prerequisites for the second coming of Christ to occur. Many of these fundamentalists also believe, falsely, that all Arabs are muslims and that all arabs want to blow up Israel.

Joe

You are referring to Christian Zionism? I have seen that attitude. I've heard of an Evangelical mission which is trying to rebuild the temple.

Terry

Look up the "700 club"

Good point.