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Does anyone here have an info on which style of vestments was originally used in Ukraine?
Was it the High back vestments or the regular Greek style?
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Older paintings and drawings show Greek style. As I understand the high-backs came out of the Poltava region sometime in about the 17th century or so. Amongst the UOC-KP clergy both kinds are worn as a matter of personal preference.
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The high back are based on the older style of vestment, that is is much easier to make. It is basically that older style with stiffening in the areas that goes over the shoulders. Tailored seams over the shoulders is a newer style.
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Older paintings and drawings show Greek style. As I understand the high-backs came out of the Poltava region sometime in about the 17th century or so. Amongst the UOC-KP clergy both kinds are worn as a matter of personal preference. I am very surprized at your mention of Poltava. Poltava is not a significant city or even area in Ukrainian Orthodox Church tradition. What are your sources? Just out of curiosity what pictures and paintings are you are referring to and from what time period? Because of all the fighting and battles and fires, there are not that many paintings around from historic times. And the paintings that do exist usually only show the hierarchy. Just for your information, in Canada, the Ukrianian orthodox Church uses a compromise of vestments are are in between the low Greek style and the very high Russian style.
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It is often said that the "high-back" phelonion came into use when the priests (especially the hieromonks) began wearing very long hair, Keeping the hair inside the back of the phelonion protects the brocade (and the jewels, if any). Whether this is in fact the origin of the "high-back" phelonion, I don't claim to know.
However, the use of the term "regular" vestments to describe the Greek style of phelonion is not entirely justified.
Fr. Serge
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I am going to throw something silly out there...
Could the high backs have originated as a way to keep the neck warm from frigid drafts and cold?!?
I find that many fashions throughout past history have practical purposes.
Alice
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Alice may have a point here. I asked my priest last night at the Sunday of Forgiveness Vespers and he said there was an old joke about "cold winters" and high back vestments. Older paintings and drawings show Greek style. As I understand the high-backs came out of the Poltava region sometime in about the 17th century or so. 17th century Poltava had nothing to do with church traditions. Reminds me of all the discussions of Chernihiv banduras versus Kyivan banduras.
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17th century Poltava had nothing to do with church traditions. I'll have to do some checking, but my recollection was they started in the area of Poltava diocese after the reforms of Peter which may have been early 18th century and not 17th as I previously indicated. My mistake. But I am not claiming this to be definitive in any way; it is strictly anecdotal and I would take all tales of the origin of the "high backs" as somewhat fabled, since everyone seems to have a different story as to their origination. In any case amongst the non-MP clergy in Ukraine both Greek and "high-back" are in use.
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Just out of curiosity what pictures and paintings are you are referring to and from what time period?
Because of all the fighting and battles and fires, there are not that many paintings around from historic times. And the paintings that do exist usually only show the hierarchy.
Just for your information, in Canada, the Ukrianian orthodox Church uses a compromise of vestments are are in between the low Greek style and the very high Russian style. Yes, I've seen the "mid-range" style, but I have also seen Greek-style in Canada, but much less often. It seems the UOC-USA uses that style more frequently [ Linked Image] Regarding historical Rus' artwork, I don't recall any iconography or art from early Rus' that had anything but low-back ("Greek") vestments on any clergy. Perhaps if you have an exception from before say the late 17th century you could share that.
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A couple of quick examples - the Last Judgement from Mshana, late 15th century (the clergy are on the third row): [ Linked Image] From Lutsk: [ Linked Image]
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17th century Poltava had nothing to do with church traditions. I am very surprized at your mention of Poltava. Poltava is not a significant city or even area in Ukrainian Orthodox Church tradition. I am rather surprised that anyone who knows much Ukrainian Church history would not know at least something about the 40 plus saints (among them St. Paissius Veychkovsky - certainly very significant) and at least five wonderworking icons that have come from the Poltava region. http://www.pravoslavie.poltava.ua/It would rather seem an insult to the Ukrainian spiritual tradition and contribution of those people to say it is "not a significant city or even area in Ukrainian Orthodox tradition". And that does not even touch the rich cultural tradition with Hohol, hetmanska and Kozak history, etc.
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Thanks for all the answers.
I like both styles btw :)
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Quote: 17th century Poltava had nothing to do with church traditions. Quote: I am very surprized at your mention of Poltava. Poltava is not a significant city or even area in Ukrainian Orthodox Church tradition. I am rather surprised that anyone who knows much Ukrainian Church history would not know at least something about the 40 plus saints (among them St. Paissius Veychkovsky - certainly very significant) and at least five wonderworking icons that have come from the Poltava region. http://www.pravoslavie.poltava.ua/It would rather seem an insult to the Ukrainian spiritual tradition and contribution of those people to say it is "not a significant city or even area in Ukrainian Orthodox tradition". And that does not even touch the rich cultural tradition with Hohol, hetmanska and Kozak history, etc. What on earth is hetmanska ? and St. Paissius Veychkovsky I personally think that Hohol's works (written in Russian) when dealing with religion were not to my taste. A very strange man, very morbid. Not expressing the joy of Orthodoxy that I like. If you mean Pasius Velichkovsky (1722-1794) that is the 18th century not the 17th century that you first mentioned. Plus, the poor man had to leave Poltava to develope his spirituality and rediscover hesychasm. The church greatly benefited by the resulting revivial of monasticism. Just to refresh your memory, you specifically mentioned 17th century Poltava as the origin of the high back vestments. This would mean the 1600's. Quote:
Older paintings and drawings show Greek style. As I understand the high-backs came out of the Poltava region sometime in about the 17th century or so. (Diak)
17th century Poltava had nothing to do with church traditions. (Miller)
Reminds me of all the discussions of Chernihiv banduras versus Kyivan banduras. The 1600's in Poltava were not a siginificant time for Ukrainian church traditions. That was my point. Chernihiv on the other hand was a significant city in terms of church affairs. In terms of history per se, the Battle of Poltava took place in the following century. Sorry if I did not express this clearly the first time.
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What on earth is hetmanska ? and St. Paissius Veychkovsky In these days of Holy Lent, especially, we all need to try to remember to speak charitably to our brothers and sisters. If someone has made an error, I don't think that our Lord would like us to embarrass them. I am sure that is not what you intended, dear Miller, so this is just a reminder to all to be careful before you post...without emoticons (like a smile or wink), the above can be construed as such. Forgive me a sinner, Alice
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What on earth is hetmanska ? and St. Paissius Veychkovsky Sorry for my rapid strokes and mispellings - That would be the hetman state and its heritage and St. Paissius/Paissy Velychkovsky. I still strongly disagree that Poltava is insignificant in Ukrainain Orthodox tradition with its heritage of saints, etc. even in the 17th century. I'll disagree with Hohol as well - he is often hilarious ( Christmas Eve for example) and to say he is without joy in expressing his Orthodox faith - you must not have read his medidations on the Divine Liturgy.
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Quote: 17th century Poltava had nothing to do with church traditions. Quote: I am very surprized at your mention of Poltava. Poltava is not a significant city or even area in Ukrainian Orthodox Church tradition. I am rather surprised that anyone who knows much Ukrainian Church history would not know at least something about the 40 plus saints (among them St. Paissius Veychkovsky - certainly very significant) and at least five wonderworking icons that have come from the Poltava region. http://www.pravoslavie.poltava.ua/It would rather seem an insult to the Ukrainian spiritual tradition and contribution of those people to say it is "not a significant city or even area in Ukrainian Orthodox tradition". And that does not even touch the rich cultural tradition with Hohol, hetmanska and Kozak history, etc. Really? 17th century Poltava? 1600's in Poltava? The cite you provided is all in Russian. Perhaps you can enlighten us as to why 17th century Poltava is important to Ukrainian Orthodox traditions? And vestments. I studied about the Pecherska Lavra, the saints of Volynia and Pochaiv and also the early saints in the Crimea. Some mention of Chernihiv especialy in the early period. The Battle of Poltava took place in the area of the site of the Kozak government was not there.
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As Poltava is one of the older Ukrainian cities (since the Iron Age) to say it was not significant is simply not accurate. It was known in antiquity also as "Ltava" in the time of the early Ruriks (as referred to in the Hypatian Chronicle). You can still see "Ltava" used as a trade name for some products coming out of that region.
Regarding the 17th century, I assume you have heard about Bohdan Khmelnytsky. Poltava was the headquarters of one of his chief regiments (I believe it was Pushkar's). I've already mentioned St. Paissy Velychkovsky, and many more saints also came from that region. I believe it was also Pushkar who established the famous Holy Cross Monastery there (which would have been 17th century).
Regarding the vestments, again, that is just one story, and there are many on exactly how and where "high-backs" developed.
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It is still unknown when the city was founded. Baltavar Kubrat's grave was found in its vicinity, and its name derives from the title he, his predecessors and his successors bore. Though the town was not attested before 1174, municipal authorities chose to celebrate the town's 1100th anniversary in 1999, for reasons unknown. The settlement is indeed an old one, as archeologists unearthed a Paleolithic dwelling as well as Scythian remains within the city limits. The present name of the city is traditionally connected to the settlement Ltava which is mentioned in the Hypatian Chronicle in 1174. The region belonged to the Grand Duchy of Lithuania from the 14th century. The Polish administration took over in 1569. In 1648 Poltava was captured by the Ruthenian-Polish magnate Jeremi Wiśniowiecki (1612-51). Poltava was the base of a distinguished regiment of the Ukrainian Cossacks. In 1667 the town passed to the Russian Empire. In the Battle of Poltava on June 27, 1709 (Old Style), or 8 July (New Style), tsar Peter the First, commanding 45,000 troops, defeated at Poltava a Swedish army of 29,000 troops led by Field Marshal Carl Gustaf Rehnskiöld (who had received the command of the army after the wounding of the Swedish king Charles XII on June 17). "Like a Swede at Poltava" remains a simile for "completely defeated" in Russian. The battle marked the end of Sweden as a great power and the rise of Russia as one. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PoltavaNo mention of famous monasteries or saints like Pecherska Lavra in Kyiv or Pochaiv. Or a hagiography of local saints in a chronicle. Sights
The centre of the old city is a semicircular Neoclassical square with the Tuscan column of cast iron (1805-11), commemorating the centenary of the Battle of Poltava and featuring 18 Swedish cannons captured in that battle. As Peter the Great celebrated his victory in the Saviour church, this 17th-century wooden shrine was carefully preserved to this day. The five-domed city cathedral, dedicated to the Exaltation of the Cross, is a superb monument of Cossack Baroque, built between 1699 and 1709. As a whole, the cathedral presents a unity which even the Neoclassical belltower has failed to mar. Another frothy Baroque church, dedicated to the Dormition of the Theotokos, was destroyed in 1934 and rebuilt in the 1990s. Regarding the 17th century, I assume you have heard about Bohdan Khmelnytsky. Poltava was the headquarters of one of his chief regiments (I believe it was Pushkar's). I've already mentioned St. Paissy Velychkovsky, and many more saints also came from that region. I believe it was also Pushkar who established the famous Holy Cross Monastery there (which would have been 17th century). The most significant event connected with Poltava was "The Battle of Poltava" and the city has monuments connected with the Russian Tsar Peter 1. None of the religious structures go back to the time of the chronicles.
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