The Byzantine Forum
Newest Members
JustinWJustiniano, Chauntsinger, barabara737th, jwag, Georg
5,963 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
2 members (2 invisible), 268 guests, and 53 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Latest Photos
St. Sharbel Maronite Mission El Paso
St. Sharbel Maronite Mission El Paso
by orthodoxsinner2, September 30
Holy Saturday from Kirkland Lake
Holy Saturday from Kirkland Lake
by Veronica.H, April 24
Byzantine Catholic Outreach of Iowa
Exterior of Holy Angels Byzantine Catholic Parish
Church of St Cyril of Turau & All Patron Saints of Belarus
Forum Statistics
Forums26
Topics35,378
Posts416,670
Members5,963
Most Online3,380
Dec 29th, 2019
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 5 1 2 3 4 5
#314275 03/04/09 04:53 PM
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 91
C
Cmoore Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
C
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 91
I am looking to find the initial split in church history. I am told it is with Photius (Catholic name) St. Photius (Orthodox name). I will be visiting the St.Photius Shrine very soon and want to know what to look for as far as information to help write my paper. It was East and West and still is but the East split again didn't it? Orthodox and Catholic? Which Church Father do I look to for that information. Why are some Greeks Catholic and some are Orthodox. Same question for Ukrainians and Russians. I have so much to learn.

I will be visiting an Orthodox Service? Mass? What are some things I should know as a Catholic so I don't stick out. I hear I need to cover my head as a female? I will be alone when I visit. I will not be receiving communion so no worries there. I will sit close enough to watch if at all possible. Will it be in Greek if I visit a Greek Orthodox Church? I have been searching on-line and found some interesting facts. Will I be noticed? Do they also believe in the real presence in communion?

I have read a few posts here and I get a feeling that even though we are in Communion with the Pope as Eastern and Latin rites, that people don't really feel that way. I say that only because of how some of the posts read. Some read as if they are making fun of Latin/ Roman Catholic practices and that only the Eastern rite is the correct way. What I find when talking about religion it is the comonalities that join us together. Sure there are differences and some are very beautiful. We can understand those differences and learn the traditions of each others religious practices. I guess my point here is that even though I have received every sacrament in the Eastern Rite I was really brought up in the Latin Rite. My mother was a very religious woman and it was her faith that I refelct on. I have a Cannon Law book for the Latin Rite and I hear there is one for the Eastern Rite too. I wonder what are the differences? I have so many questions that it will take time to find the answers I am looking for. The Canadian site was informative. I was looking for more information on being confirmed immediatly after baptism and why that is. I guess I will stop there to see what type of direction this will lead. Thanks for any assistance that can be provided.

Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 97
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 97
That's a lot of stuff to ask! Firstly, and somewhat unfortunately, the Orthodox churches (and ironically as a result of having NOT been latinized) tend to be ethnocentric. They tend to exist as ethnic social halls where their faith is simply a branch of national identity. Because of this, it will vary greatly as to if you will "stick out" or not. I would look for a church that has a high number of American Americans in it.
You do not need to cover you head always but many churches encourage this very pious tradition. A few would mandate it. It is not a universal.
As to you observations online regarding byzantine catholics and their critical review of Roman catholicism, it is hard to say. Many byzantine catholics are what they are because they are frustrated with the direction the latin church has taken since Vatican II. The byzantine rite has allowed them to retain much of what was felt to have been lost in the latin tradition. It is sad to see but it is a way that Roman catholics have reconciled their frustration with the western expression of the catholic faith while remaining "in communion" with the Pope, which since our infancy has been ingrained as an absolute must in typical cult-like fashion.
Of course the Orthodox believe in the true presence in the Eucharist. The catechism of the Catholic church says the Orthodox share such a closeness that although not in full-communion, are so close as to be allowed to receive the sacraments in a Roman catholic church.
Orthodox often tend to have a more suspicious and less fraternal view of their Roman catholic bretheran. Some will go so far as to call them heretics.
My suggestion to you is to look up information on the Society of St. John Chrysostom; an apostolate of teaching dedicated to fellowship between Orthodox and byzantine and latin rite catholics.

Sbdn Jon

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,989
Likes: 10
Moderator
Member
Offline
Moderator
Member
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,989
Likes: 10
Dear Sister in Christ,

I believe that St. Photios shrine is Greek Orthodox.

The Greek Orthodox generally do not wear headcoverings so don't worry about that...though if you would like to, surely there is nothing saying that you shouldn't.

In the Orthodox tradition, the worship service is called a *Divine Liturgy* (we never use the Latin word 'mass' though we know what you mean when you use it by mistake!) It can be in mostly Greek or in mostly English or in a mix of both..depending on the congregation and the priest.

I don't know if the shrine offers the Divine Liturgy, but in whatever Greek Orthodox church you attend for one, most likely you will hear some English. Cross yourself everytime the name of the Trinity is invoked ('glory to the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit'). We Orthdox cross ourselves more than the Catholics now do. You can feel comfortable to cross yourself as you do as a Catholic. Most Greek Orthodox are very friendly to Catholics, and don't bite! smile

Upon entering a Greek Orthodox church, you buy a candle and light it. You can then venerate the icons, if you like, by crossing yourself and kissing them. You can tell the persons at the candlestand that you are a visitor and ask if they have any service books available to you that you can follow in. (If you would like to do that... it is probably better to just take in the whole service on your first visit).

At the end of the service, the congregation will line up to receive 'antidoron' or 'blessed bread'. This is not Holy Communion and is given instead for all the congregants, but especially for those who were not prepared to take Holy Communion that day, or who are of another faith tradition. (Only Orthodox can receive in Orthodox churches; ie: closed communion). Please feel free to do this, and we also kiss the priest's hand after he gives us a piece. It is an old world sign of respect for the priest who consecrates the Body and Blood of our Lord. It may feel odd to you as an American, but it is an almost liberating feeling once you get over the discomfort...it feels good to honor and respect others as all people did in older days. Ofcourse if it really bugs you, you don't need to kiss his hand, and he will understand.

Finally, relax. Greeks are famous for their hospitality towards non-Greeks. smile

In Christ,
Alice


Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 213
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 213
since you have taken most of the Sacraments in the Eastern Catholic church then the Liturgy should be almost totally the same. Depending on the type of Ec you have previously experienced.

Last edited by DewiMelkite; 03/04/09 08:33 PM.
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 3,411
A
AMM Offline
Member
Offline
Member
A
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 3,411
Quote
Firstly, and somewhat unfortunately, the Orthodox churches (and ironically as a result of having NOT been latinized) tend to be ethnocentric. They tend to exist as ethnic social halls where their faith is simply a branch of national identity. Because of this, it will vary greatly as to if you will "stick out" or not. I would look for a church that has a high number of American Americans in it.

I realize this thread is started by a newcomer, but I'm really put off by your tone here.

Having worshipped in Orthodox churches in multiple jurisdictions, I can say your experience is not mine. In many parishes certainly the ethnic associations, national origins are present and inform the traditions of the church; but in my opinion to say they're "social halls" is really rather uncalled for.

Greek Americans, Ukrainian Americans, etc. are all as "American" as anybody else.

Last edited by AMM; 03/04/09 09:39 PM.
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 1,134
Likes: 1
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 1,134
Likes: 1
Originally Posted by AMM
Quote
Firstly, and somewhat unfortunately, the Orthodox churches (and ironically as a result of having NOT been latinized) tend to be ethnocentric. They tend to exist as ethnic social halls where their faith is simply a branch of national identity. Because of this, it will vary greatly as to if you will "stick out" or not. I would look for a church that has a high number of American Americans in it.

I realize this thread is started by a newcomer, but I'm really put off by your tone here.

Having worshipped in Orthodox churches in multiple jurisdictions, I can say your experience is not mine. In many parishes certainly the ethnic associations, national origins are present and inform the traditions of the church; but in my opinion to say they're "social halls" is really rather uncalled for.

Greek Americans, Ukrainian Americans, etc. are all as "American" as anybody else.

I second the motion. I've been to many Orthodox churches of different jurisdictions. The people are just as pious and reverent as any EC or RC. Food and socializing is an Eastern tradition,(hey, We're a family!) but I haven't seen it take priority over faith.

To call them "social halls" is out of line.

Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 97
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 97
I am happy for your experiences. It brings me peace to hear that the ethnic factor is not an overpowering element in many parishes. Yes, it has been my experience on many occasions. Very recently a post on the Orthodox Forum cited a "mystery visitor" at an Orthodox parish. Their experience was very much akin to what I said. Sure, I suppose I could have said it a little more delicately but the reality is that xenophobia is a major problem in many of the Orthodox churches in the United States.

Sbdn Jon

Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,505
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,505
Welcome,
Stick around for a few decades and you might get to know the differences. wink
Stephanos I

Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 91
C
Cmoore Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
C
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 91
Hmmm,
Soon people will never have experienced Pre Vatican II. I attend mass with RC's that didn't like the changes. I am happy to be able to hear the Word of God and understand it! We do have a few spots where our priest has brought back some Latin to make the elders happy. I am glad I get to see what the priest is doing and I find it is more welcoming instead of having his back to me. I remember blessing myself 100 plus times in the Eastern Rite and when I started attending Mass in the RC church I couldn't figure out why I was blessing myself backwards. I have only heard protestants call it crossing ourselves. They make fun of us for that and I told a friend it is how we open ourselves to prayer. Much like when they pray in the name of Jesus. She understood it better when I said that to her.

I love the Icons! I also remember kissing an Icon on a table before receiving communion. We Kiss the feet of Jesus on Good Friday. We also Kiss baby Jesus before putting him away until next advent

So a comment made here was about a newcomer posting. Am I not supposed to post a thread on my own? Does that mean I should be treated different as a newcomer?

I asked my pastor if I could receive communion in the Greek Orthodox church and he said only if there wasn't a Catholic Church around so the answer was "no" I am setting out on my very own pilgrimage to discover my roots in the Eastern Rite.

My Church hisory teacher suggested St John Chrysostom. She said I would like him and he was very outspoken just like myself and always getting kicked out. I like him already, but haven't come upon him in my reading just yet. I will get there. My Pasor said I would find what I was looking for through Photius research and he can't wait to read my paper. I will know since I will be researching both as well as many other Church Fathers. The Holy Spirit will guide me in my decission. I needed permission to write about Photius since he isn't a church Father in the Catholic Church. I have read both views and found it interesting enough for a deeper search. I am excited but also a little nervous since I will not be with my own church family. I will see if I can find anyone to go with me.

Kissing the hand of someone I have never met is a little uncomfortable so I can assure you I won't be doing that unless the Pope were to walk in. I won't wear headcovering unless I have to. I wasn't sure what was customary. I have attended a Jewish Synagogue. There were Messianic Jews and they were very welcoming. I hear they are the best at hospitality but I have also heard other stories that contradict that so I guess it really comes down to our humanity. Our Old Testament teacher prepared us for what to expect, what not to do or say, and what we could and could not do. It was very informative and I got to listen to them bad mouth Christians mildly. I was glad the teacher had something to say to the Rabbi at the end. If she didn't I would have. She corrected him and said we didn't leave, you kicked us out. Funny? Neither one of them were present in the year 70AD.

The Lord is leading me to research my roots. My last two clues were St. Thecla and St. Basil the Great. Long story but for some reason I need to do this research and it may be that I work with Orthodox and Catholics. I believe that understanding the church and its beginings will help me to be a better leader in the church.
Thanks for any help that is given in loving guidance.

Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,528
Grateful
Member
Offline
Grateful
Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,528
Originally Posted by Athanasius
That's a lot of stuff to ask! Firstly, and somewhat unfortunately, the Orthodox churches (and ironically as a result of having NOT been latinized) tend to be ethnocentric. They tend to exist as ethnic social halls where their faith is simply a branch of national identity.

Oh, nonsense.

The ones who actually show up for Liturgy are there to worship God.

For some, religion is a big part of their heriatge, and vice versa. The same is true for some Baptists, Mexicans, Filipinos, etc. . . .

But, most know the differeence between ethnic customs and religion.


Quote
I would look for a church that has a high number of American Americans in it.

On the one hand, I'm guilty of this: AmChurch. On the other hand, America is made up of immigrants. So, the question is *how much* of the customs are kept from the old country. I've been in some churches where the answer is " alot" and in others where the answer is "hardly anything." Both have their plussess and minuses. One observation: parishes that keep more of their ethnic heritage often have better food . . .

Quote
The byzantine rite has allowed them to retain much of what was felt to have been lost in the latin tradition. It is sad to see but it is a way that Roman catholics have reconciled their frustration with the western expression of the catholic faith while remaining "in communion" with the Pope, which since our infancy has been ingrained as an absolute must in typical cult-like fashion.

"Typical cult-like fashion"? Dude, it's a free country. If people don't like the papacy, they really are free to join a different religion. Or, like a lot of Catholics, they are free to stay and grumble . . . ;-)

-- John


Last edited by Father Anthony; 03/05/09 01:19 AM. Reason: edited inappropriate reference
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 91
C
Cmoore Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
C
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 91
I don't have decades. Just about 8 weeks so I am utilizing any resources to help me learn what I need to know to write a paper about a Church Father. At the same time I am researching my roots. I even got married in the Ukrainian Catholic Church. My husband didn't really care and my mother was surprised that I picked the church of my fathers faith.
So far everyone has been really helpful. I guess the real question is how much do we really know about our own faith? We find un-Catechised adults throughout the RC church so I am sure it is the same in other churches too. Most people only know the basics.

Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,528
Grateful
Member
Offline
Grateful
Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,528
Originally Posted by Cmoore
I am looking to find the initial split in church history.

The official date is 1054. Latin West and Greek East always have been different -- you can see that in the differences, for example, between St. Augustine and St. John Cassian over the way in which they understood how Divine Grace saves us. The two civilizations gradually drifted separate and apart for many historical reasons. The Photian Schism, for example, was one of those moments towards an eventual divorce. The separation began in 1054. The split, though, was arguably not bitter and engrained and permanent till the Fourth Crusade in 1204.

Of course, the non-Chalcedonian Orthodox have another point of view on all of this. From their perspective (as I gather it), the Latins and the Greeeks are all "westerners" and we split from them after the Council of Chalcedon . . .

May I suggest History of the World Christian Movement [amazon.com] ?




Quote
I will be visiting an Orthodox Service? Mass?

Divine Liturgy




Quote
What are some things I should know as a Catholic so I don't stick out.

Alice's post is (as usual) quite good.

Also, you might want to see the essay by Khouria Matthews-Green, 12 Things I Wished I'd Known for a first visit to an Orthodox Church [frederica.com]




Quote
Do they also believe in the real presence in communion?

Yes.




Quote
I have read a few posts here and I get a feeling that even though we are in Communion with the Pope as Eastern and Latin rites, that people don't really feel that way. I say that only because of how some of the posts read. Some read as if they are making fun of Latin/ Roman Catholic practices and that only the Eastern rite is the correct way.

This is one of the few places online where Eastern Catholics can talk with each other in their own terms. A lot of that communication, therefore, consists of expressing frustrations at being a tiny minority in an overwhelmingly Latin Rite Church.




Quote
I have so many questions that it will take time to find the answers I am looking for.

Here is what a priest advised me, "Be patient with the Holy Spirit." Not that I've always followed that, but it helps when I do.


-- John

Last edited by harmon3110; 03/05/09 01:45 AM. Reason: typos
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 91
C
Cmoore Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
C
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 91
Thanks John! Great info!

Yes my pastor has me memorizing a prayer to keep me on track and to not worry about where the Lord is leading me. I only have memorized the first 4 lines and the prayer is absolutly beautiful. Here it is....

Above all, Trust in the slow works of God.
We are quite naturally impatient in everything.
To reach the end with no delay.
We should like to skip the intermediate stages.


I have 4 or 5 more sections like that and then it will be memorized.

It is helpful since I am very excited about finding all the answers NOW! This prayer is helping me keep things in perspective.

Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 97
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 97
Quote
"Typical cult-like fashion"? Dude, it's a free country. If people don't like the papacy, they really are free to join a different religion. Or, like a lot of Catholics, they are free to stay and grumble . . . ;-)

My brother in Christ, it's not that I do not like the papacy, it's just the development of the papacy over the past 1000 years. It has fallen out of line with ecclesial tradition thus developing it's own parallel tradition. More specifically, I have trouble with the demagoguery (if that's a word) that the papacy has become. It in the minds of many has become a cult of the papacy rather than the catholic church or they are seen as so intermingled that both are obscured.

Regarding the schism:
Some scholars[34] have argued that the Schism between East and West has very ancient roots, and that sporadic schisms in the common unions took place under Pope Victor I (second century), Pope Stephen I (third century) and Pope Damasus I (fourth and fifth century). Later on, disputes about theological and other questions led to schisms between the Churches in Rome and Constantinople for 37 years from 482 to 519 (the Acacian Schism), and for 13 years from 866-879
The biggest and most talked about split is 1054 but the schism actually took centuries to crystalize. The original excommunications of 1054 actually only from Rome excommunicated the Patriarch and on the Byzantine side only the papal legates. The papal bull itself was invalid as the pope who issued it was dead before it was given. Some place the split in the time of Saint Photios, for example — or even earlier — or 1204, with the sack of Constantinople by the Fourth Crusade, or even 1453, the fall of Constantinople, when the Latins gave no help to prevent it.

Peace,

Sbdn Jon

Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 91
C
Cmoore Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
C
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 91
I just read in my text that Humbert was a papal delegate to Constatinople under LeoIX and was responsible for the first formal break beatwen Eastern "Orthodox" and Western "Catholic" churches. It also mentioned he was probably the worst person to send to the East where the emperor still acted as head of the church. Humbert excommunicated the patriach and the patriach excommunicated him. The Great Schism that began in 1054 remains one of the darkes legacies of the reform movement.

Then it moves on to talk about simoniac priests and spiritual poverty.

I will do a mini search on Humbert later today to see who he was and if there is more details to that event.

Page 1 of 5 1 2 3 4 5

Moderated by  Irish Melkite 

Link Copied to Clipboard
The Byzantine Forum provides message boards for discussions focusing on Eastern Christianity (though discussions of other topics are welcome). The views expressed herein are those of the participants and may or may not reflect the teachings of the Byzantine Catholic or any other Church. The Byzantine Forum and the www.byzcath.org site exist to help build up the Church but are unofficial, have no connection with any Church entity, and should not be looked to as a source for official information for any Church. All posts become property of byzcath.org. Contents copyright - 1996-2023 (Forum 1998-2023). All rights reserved.
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5