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I still don't understand what you mean by "regimentation" and "lock step mentality".

Have you been following any of the debates within the Catholic Church in recent years about theology, liturgy, ecumenism, social teaching, etc? Have you noticed the differences (not all of them good) in liturgical practice from one Latin parish to another?

And what has any of this got to do with the situation of Orthodoxy in America? Surely, the question of Orthodox unity in North America has got nothing to do with "regimentation"? Or do you think that Constantinople has taken on something of this so-called "lock step mentality" from the elder Rome?

I think three very important points have emerged from this thread so far.

The first is Theophan/Bob's point about the greater social cohesion of a small homogenous group. If everyone feels connected to everyone else, the people are much more likely to be active and get involved both with the parish and with each other.

The second is IAlmisry's question about evangelization. In a modern society, where lots of people are non-Christian or non-religious, every church and every parish must evangelize not only its own members but also reach out to others.

The third is the need for "ongoing education and growth in the Faith," which Theophan/Bob points out. Every Christian needs this not only for his own sake, but also for the sake of others. Not only Bishops and priests, but all Christians are all called to evangelize others, but how can we do that without a strong foundation in the teachings of the Church so that we may "be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear" (1 Pet 3, 15). This is a challenge to all Christians.

You probably won't hear anything. In other places you will hear the standard characterizations of overseas church leaders as corrupt and untrustworthy. You will also see things like this

http://www.aoiusa.org/main/page.php?page_id=127

Which if that ever comes to pass... Look out.

I find it . . . remarkable . . . that someone would be making these claims at all. "Constantinople" has been Istanbul for over five centuries, and the present Orthodox bishop of that city has almost no one left there who is Orthodox! His only "flock" is in the diaspora, and much of the diaspora prefers the omophorion of other bishops . . .

In America, if the Orthodox wanted a common hierarchy, that could have had it years ago. They could have it tomorrow, if they want it. The simple open secret is that not enough people want it. Multiple jurisdictions provide multiple opportunities for everyone . . . it provides more jobs for clergy . . . it provides more places to worship, switch to, and belong to for the laity . . . and it provides more places for preserving ethnic heritages (and avoiding others) for all. Lots of people like it that way. And if enough people feel otherwise, they can select a patriarch and a hierarchy to unite them.

Of course, for those in America who prefer ecclesial unity in the meantime, there is already a bishop who has a long established claim to primacy of the West . . .


Be well, and happy weekend.

-- John

John you have said it well. You have said it better than i could have and I am one who rejoices in multiple jurisdictions for all the reasons you have stated above.

Johnzonaras, I tried to respond to your private message and now it seems you have them blocked. Could you send me another one? Thanks.

Alexis

Unfortunately you get situations like this.

http://www.post-gazette.com/regionstate/20000402carpath5.asp

Andrew, this quote leapt out at me (toward the bottom of that article):


I have seen that in a place.

Its Ruthenian community split 70+ years ago when the Vatican forbade any more married men being ordained by the Eastern Catholic jurisdictions in North America. Half of the community accepted it; and they remained Ruthenian / Byzantine Catholic. The other half of the community rejected that decision and went into the communion with the Orthodox; and they are now OCA. Their churches were literally across the street from each other; later, one group moved their church down the street.

Now, three generations later, those who are left in that little town find the disagreement pointless. The real point is that people are leaving that village to move to bigger cities or different regions with more opportunity.

As for religion . . . many of the Eastern Catholics drifted into the Roman Catholic Church. It was more convenient, especially if they or their children moved away to a place where there was not an Eastern Catholic Church of the right ethnicity. Some became Orthodox, if that fuller praxis appealed to them. Of course, some became nothing, religiously lapsed, etc.

And some joined the new evangelical churches . . .


-- John

Christ is in our midst!! He is and always will be!!

May I take this statement one step further. Not only are we called to evangelize others, but we are simultaneously called to metanoia--the ongoing reformation of life and evangelization of ourselves. To do less than this stumbles on the false assumption that we are somehow fully evangelized, or fully perfected. From an Eastern perspective, we are all on a journey of being perfected, an ongoing process: called theosis. So as we call others to Christ by our word and example, we are also called by Christ, through others, to continuous reform and growth in holiness in the Church, the Body of Christ. This is the reason we find and attach ourselves to a spiritual father, one who can guide our growth and point out our failings so that we do not succumb to vainglory, delusion, or other sins of pride.

As those experienced in the spiritual life will point out, sometimes we take two teps forward and one step back; sometimes one and one; and sometimes we lose ground. But we always keep our gaze set on Christ and work out our salvation with fear and trembling.

This is not only the challenge of Orthodoxy, big "O," but also the challenge of orthodoxy, little "o." The challenge of all of us Christians.

In christ,

BOB

That is all true. The issue I was trying to highlight is that schism can be seen as a solution to any dispute, and excommunication is basically meaningless. You can always find a bishop who will take you in. That is a result of division.

http://www.aoiusa.org/blog/2009/03/...n-diaspora-must-submit-to-mother-church/



See the comments following the lecture: "Challenges of Orthodoxy in America And the Role of the Ecumenical Patriarchate" by Very Reverend Archimandrite Dr. Elpidophoros Lambriniadis.