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Originally Posted by asianpilgrim
[
And isn't this article [touchstonemag.com] nice?

Love it, not just becasue it is full of good humour but because it shows that the clergy will not tolerate change thrust on them by "experts." It complements what I was saying about the Serbian refusal to bring in liturgical changes.

"It is inevitable, nonetheless, that “experts” are also invited to speak at these symposia, and, if one may speak candidly, the presentations of the experts sometimes provide the truly low points of the whole enterprise. On former occasions, for example, we have been obliged to bear up under onslaughts of “the renewal of feminine ministries” and to endure the ravages of rationalist biblical exegesis. This year we were, on the whole, mercifully spared such torture.

"The single exception to this mercy was a disappointing lecture on “liturgical renewal” by a professor from one of the Orthodox seminaries. The material was essentially the same shortsighted nonsense that the Roman Catholics, Anglicans, and Lutherans were forced to endure thirty or forty years ago.

"We clergy, three quarters of us adult converts to the Orthodox Church, sat in sackcloth and inwardly groaned like pelicans in the wilderness, while a life-long Orthodox liturgical expert explained to us at length that Orthodox worship “no longer speaks meaningfully to modern man” and suggested ways in which an established panel of his cronies and clones might bring their expertise to bear on this crushing problem of Orthodox irrelevance to American life. They would pull our worship up to date and make it more meaningful to the refined sensibilities of contemporary society.

"Growls and low rumblings were audible in the assembly. The fact that there was not a sudden, violent rush at the speaker’s podium is chiefly to the credit of Orthodox restraint and ascetical discipline."

http://www.touchstonemag.com/archives/article.php?id=17-10-012-v


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Originally Posted by rcguest
Thank You! I do believe I understand your rationale here. As long as the spiritual needs of the faithful are being met leave these matters between the individual hierarchs who hopefully will work them out in their own good time. I guess I can buy into that.
Bill

Hello Bill,

Well, I'd go with you most of the way but these major decisions belong as much to all the faithful as they do to the bishops.

The Orthodox do not divide the Church into the Ecclesia docens (the Pope, the bishops, the Magisterium) and the Ecclesia docta (the laity, the great unwashed.) While the bishops are meant to be shining examples of the purity of the faith and the maintainer of tradition and the local arbviters of liturgy, the laity are expected to ensure that their bishops are fulfilling their functions. "Magisterial" decisions which the laity will not endorse fall over and die.

In some ways the concept of authority is the same in both our Churches, in other ways it is not.

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Originally Posted by Hieromonk Ambrose
... the Ecclesia docta (the laity, the great unwashed.)

Who are "the great unwashed"?

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Quote
Who are "the great unwashed"?


BILL:

Two thoughts come to mind.

1. The unbaptised.

2. The mass of people in a traditonal culture who did not shower or bathe each day as we do. It would get a bit "gamey" in church, but that's what clouds of incense are meant to mask--that locker-room aroma wafting from the main part of the church. grin grin grin

BOB

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Originally Posted by ajk
Originally Posted by Hieromonk Ambrose
... the Ecclesia docta (the laity, the great unwashed.)

Who are "the great unwashed"?
In the Sui Iuris Byzantine Catholic Church of Pittsburgh "the great unwashed" are the laity, who have to edure the replacement of the Byzantine Divine Liturgy with something created by "experts" in liturgy.

The article correctly describes the damage done to the poor Ruthenian faithful by such experts. If only our bishops were orthodox and good pastors!

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I don't know. It seems that if you let a wound fester & hope it heals itself, u run the risk of gangrene (heresy) & amputation (schism & loss of cannonicity). Isn't that, in a very over simplified way, what happened in 1054? Sleeping dogs had layed for so long that they no longer recognized other members of their pack & so attacked them instead.

Jon

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