www.byzcath.org Forums News & Events Church News Unrepentant Practicing Homosexual Received Into Catholic Church In Fort Worth, Texas

Pavel,

My fear is that he will never hear those "clear teachings" because many within the Church - including presumably his priest as well as some here - seem to believe that Christ's call to sinners didn't include calling them out of their sin. In which case, I'm afraid that he will fulfill Paul's warning:

"Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord." (1 Cor. 11:27)

I too pray that his entrance into the Church will lead him to salvation, but nothing in that article suggests to me that he will hear the full Gospel of Love proclaimed by the Church, at least, not at his present parish.

But what are the chances he would have gone anywhere near the Church if those representing it had told him that AND refused to let him in till he agreed with them 100%? (Read the essay again - he does know what the official Church teaching is, but disagrees with it.]

Better to get as many people as possible into the Lifeboat and let the Captain sort them out once we get to shore.

Theist Gal
(feeling Nautically Naughty today )

John,

Speaking as one of the patients in this spiritual hospital, I agree! The Church is the place of healing.

But let's be clear: Jesus said it is the truth that sets us free, that delivers us from bondage and slavery to sin and death, to the powers of corruption at work within us. This man, as "humorous" as some may find him, has approched and entered the "hospital" as an adult, and then presumes to tell the staff and physicians how to heal him and what medicines to take, and even denies that he has a certain illness, and UNFORTUNATELY it appears at least one member of the "staff" has perscribed a toxin - continue in your gay lifestyle, Jesus accepts you, you do not need to change.

To me that is not compassion, it is malpractice.

I agree with Francis, he needs to hear and receive the truth.

To continue with the medical analogy, let's just say that you have a powerful infection in your body that is making you sick. The doctor has in his cabinet a whole range of antibiotics, but perscribes the weakest dosage. Once you complete the regimen, yes you have taken the medicine, but are you cured? No, and in fact you have probably strengthened the infection and perhaps even developed an antibiotic resistant strain that will end your life. This guy has been perscribed a weak dosage for a deadly strain of infection.

Could God in His mercy bring about an authentic conversion? Absolutely - I will pray for it to happen. Is the fact that he attends church regularly a good thing? Yes. But he has been denied something and is denying something that is key to his full healing and restoration as a child of God.

Yes Jesus loves him, but not in the way that he thinks and too much to let him stay that way.

Theist Gal,

It is not our duty to try to get as many as we can in the "boat"; it is our duty to lovingly preach the Gospel. It is God who will bring someone in. When Christ proclaimed the truth of the Real Presence, many left him - and he didn't water down his teachings to get them to come back, he instead challenged the apostles as well if they would leave too.

But speaking the truth in love does not repel sincere people. For example, my best friend from High School who is homosexual knows exactly where I stand on homosexuality. I have proclaimed the Church's teachings to him in a loving, but forthright, way. He didn't reject me; in fact, his respect for me grew that I didn't water down my beliefs to make them palatable to him. And we have stayed close friends nonetheless. In other words, I didn't have to tell him that he was not doing anything wrong for him to realize that I loved him.

The same applies to the Church. If her members preach the Gospel in Truth and Love, then those who are open will enter into her. But if people enter into her without renouncing their sins, then they will simply be receiving condemnation on themselves when the receive our Lord in the Eucharist.

Well, unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on your opinion ), the Church has a distressing habit of letting in just about anyone who knocks on the door - even if they start criticizing the decor the moment they get in. Not much we can do about it, since Church members usually aren't elected. (and thank God they're not - otherwise I wouldn't have made it either.)

Theist Gal,

So are you saying that people should not resolve to reform their life when they enter the Church? If you think they should, what indicates that this man has?

If he sincerely resolved to renounce his homosexuality, then entered the Church, but then fell into that particular sin every day but then asked for forgiveness every day, I would call him a saint. We are all sinners in need of mercy, but God asks us to resolve to amend our life to the dictates of the Gospel.

It is a straw man to imply that I am saying that one must be perfect to enter the Church. I'm simply saying that one must renounce their sins and beg for forgiveness. Nothing in this man's article leads me to believe that he was even asked to do that.

Theist Gal,

But if we look to the pattern of the early Church, it was very clear that to enter the full communion of the Church was to embrace her doctrine and common life. One could remain a catechumen indefinitely, but to be initiated into her Mysteries was a step on an altogether different level.

This man should be welcomed at Church - even with his disagreements and difficulties, and sinful lifestyle. The door should always be open to those who seek, wherever they are along the pilgrimage of faith. No one is arguing for "closing the door" to "outsiders".

But should he have been fully initiated as a believing Catholic? That to me is the fundamental question.

I would argue - and I think most of the Church fathers would have agreed with me, or rather I believe I am in agreement with them - no. Both his orthodoxy and his orthopraxis are, in many respects, diametrically opposed to our communion and to the Gospel. Gaining access to the Sacred Mysteries is not the same as joining the Jaycees. And it is one thing to take a posture of, "Lord I believe, help my unbelief!" This man has said "Lord I don't believe, too bad!"

Had his pastor guided him appropriately, he would have remained a Catechumen and a welcome member of the parish - until such time as he was willing to emrace the fullness of Catholic truth. That to me would have helped him to recognize where he stood vis-a-vis the teachings of the Gospel in the Church's eyes. He is always welcome, but the cost of approaching the Sacred Gifts is the cross of self-denial and true conversion. This was the medicine he needed to receive, but instead was denied in the name of some misplaced compassion.

Now he may never fully convert - but I certainly hope that is not the case!

God bless,

Gordo

Well, nobody ever asked ME to.

Anyway, my point is, if there's fault involved here, it's on the part of the Church officials who allowed this wonderful young man to join our Church. You're right, someone probably *should* have stopped him at the door and said, "Thus far and no farther".

But - they didn't, and here he is. So what now? Do we kick him out? Or do we put a little faith in the grace of God to do what reforming needs to be done? I vote for the latter.

Catholicism has NEVER been a pure sect like the Cathars but has embraced many saints and yes, sinners over the hundreds of years and thank God for that.

you go, Girl or (gal)!!!

as long as you agree that is between them , God, and their Spiritual Father not for us to presume to judge whom Our Lord condemns

The problem here is that Jimmy Fowler has written an article, used his name and photo, and let it be known that he openly rejects the Catholic Church's teaching on homosexuality. If he can be welcomed while unrepetent in his abominable life style, then we have no moral high ground whatsoever to defend any other Church teaching when it is attacked. Is it any wonder Islam is growing so rapidly !

I sort of get your first point, but then you lost me with the comment about Islam. Just because Islam tends to be stricter in its punishment of sinners doesn't mean the Catholic Church should follow its example. They also put adulterers - even pregnant women - to death.

Christianity is supposed to follow the way of mercy and charity, not the way of condemnation and punishment. At least that's how I was taught. Maybe I went to the wrong schools.

Theist Gal

I'm not suggesting that the Catholic Church follow the teachings of Islam. We should just follow our own, but in the case of Jimmy Fowler and many others, we don't. Islamic textbooks for grammar school kids in the US teach that in a Judeo-Christian society, things like homosexuality, promiscuity, drug abuse, abortion, crime in general, etc flourish because of our low moral standards. Instances like this just continue to give them more ammunition (no pun intended) And whether we agree or not, they are growing rapidly.

Ebed and Lawrence,

I agree that the Catholic Church should teach the Catholic faith. I agree that people who convert or belong to the Catholic Church should believe in its teachings. But, many Catholics don't believe or follow Catholic teaching. Now, what should be done with them? Kick them out ? Or, should they be instructed in the faith, given the graces that they need, and allowed to grow into fully accepting the faith ?

-- John