www.byzcath.org Forums News & Events Church News Patriarch of Eritrea dies

Dear Rev. Subdeacon John,

Youza right!

But he is listed among the 70 Disciples, is he not?

So he is venerated with them and the Apostles liturgically, right?

O.K. I'm really stretching things.

Were there 70 Disciples or 72 (Smarty Riassa )?

Alex

Yup, he's one of the 70(72). I guess the number depends upon how many Alexandrian Jews had a hand in the Septuagint (70 or 72), I know there must be a parallel like the 12 Apostles/Patriarchs.

John

Hey, you all! These the same folks who gave us 150/151 Psalms?

Joe Thur

Dear Cantor Joseph,

That is truly a fascinating question!

If I'm correct, I believe our Lord chose the 70/72 disciples as Moses chose the same number of judges for Israel (?).

And our Church liturgically honours the 12 with the 70/72, and also often adds the two Disciples/Evangelists in the number of the 12.

And the four "Beasts" mentioned in Revelation have been understood in symbolic terms to mean the four Evangelists - but I believe the Copts celebrate them as four special Angelic Beings and the "24" Beings before God are, in our tradition, the 12 Children of the Old Israel and the 12 Apostles, Children of the New Israel.

Some hagiographic sources give "70" others "72".

But I don't think they had anything to do with the Septuagint authors, only that their number also reflected the number of judges appointed by Moses the God-Seer.

That's all I know . . . sniff . . .

Alex

"So I guess a celibate priestly vocation is not for either of you, eh?"

Alex,

One doesn't have to be married to treat a woman like a woman and not like some she-man. Unless you are implying that celibates can't be gentlemen. But you wouldn't suggest that since we both know many celibate clergy who are real gentlemen and are excellent examples of manly character.

Years ago, back when it was "chauvinist" and "male-dominating" to open doors for women, especially if they were managers at your company, I once nearly got written up by a female supervisor for simply opening the door for her. First, I was a male; second, I was below her (read: a peon).

Uh, oh. My next post is my 666th post! Any meaning in that?

Dear Cantor Joe,

So, for you, a sense of humour is something that happens to other people?

Just relax and don't be so overly analytical and sensitive.

Alex

Alex,

Analytical and sensitive about what? Is being mindless and insenstive the better alternative?

And why are we making comments directed at what we perceive to be other people's state of mind and personality? I am quite relaxed, thank you. I still have my other earlobe.

BTW, this is getting off the original topic about the Patriarch of Eirtrea.

Dear Cantor Joe,

Apology accepted.

Alex

Of course it would be good if it were true, but it is not. Of course there are hard feelings. I thought it would be obvious that compared to most of the people I attend the Liturgy with, I try to be open minded. Many Ethiopians (the laity) are very bitter about the Eritreans forming not only a separate Church but a separate nation at all. I know that most Ethiopians would have my head for many of the positions that I have taken on this web page (“what! Defending Arabs? Are you crazy?”). I am sure that many lay Ethiopians would be upset about me saying anything about the Eritrean Abun (of course this is the attitude of the laity and not the clergy). I remember when I was an undergraduate the Eritrean Student Association invited me to give a "solidarity statement' at their “Liberation Day/ Independence day” celebration. I made a few remarks and I was ignored by many Ethiopians for the better part of two years.

I have always supported the right to self determination but I always felt uneasy about Eritrea. You see, Eritrea corresponds exactly to the border lines of the former Italian colony, in other words the extent of what King Menelik could not defend against European imperialism. In other words, it is the creation of Colonialism. I have had a hard time accepting that what makes the difference between an Ethiopian and an Eritrean is that the latter were colonized by Italy. You will notice that to archaeologists and historians Eritrea does not correspond to an historical country but a modern political reality. Ancient Aksum makes no sense if Eritrea was a separate country in ancient times. I know you have probably heard similar statements about Ukraine coming from Russians but in the case of Ethiopia it is actually true and not Czarist/Stalinist propaganda.

Both Italian and later British imperialism both promoted the idea of breaking the Eritrean Orthodox away from the Ethiopian Church. This was done because both countries understood what the Orthodox faith represented and the role that it played in the re-unification struggle between Eritrea and Ethiopia against the Brits, after the Second World War. This dream of the Italians and the British, for a separate Eritrean Church never succeeded until Eritrea became independent in the early 90's.

Many people, many heroes who were cherished as Ethiopians by Ethiopians suddenly became not Ethiopians anymore over night. People like the former Ethiopian national soccer player Negash Teklit who Ethiopians used to cheer for and treat as one of their own is now the national coach of Eritrea. People like Ras Alula the hero who fought against Italy at the Battle of Adwa. Heroes like St Ewostatewos himself. So Ethiopians just need time to recover from their bitterness and their feelings of being "betrayed.' No one should ever simply say to an Ethiopian to "just get over it.'

But Ethiopians need to be honest with themselves and ask serious questions about how people were and or are oppressed and what they should be doing to end the unfair treatment of people in Ethiopia.

Eritreans should be left alone (by Ethiopians) and allowed to just live their own life, make their own mistakes and successes and come to their own conclusions.

We can only pray that relations between Eritreans and Ethiopians will improve in the future and the basic Unity which characterized Tabot Christianity be renewed. But of course Unity has to be based on love, respect and free will, it can never be forced.

P.S.

I will get on you and Administrators pro-CIA views this weekend. Don't think I have nothing to say in response big guy

P.S.S., Cantor Joe is correct about Philip the Deacon, it was him. That is a story that has always confused me since it is the teaching of our Church that Deacons are not allowed to Baptize.

Should we not be properly addressing the heads of the Ethiopian Churches as Abuna, and not giving them Greek names ? Eternal memory to Abuna.

A new Ethiopian restaurant opened in a nearby city. Thank God, miracles still happen.

Diak,

Don't worry about it. When we are speaking Amharic we call your Eastern Orthodox Patriarchs "Abun' or “Abuna so and so.” A fair exchange?

Shlomo Aklie,
Just a small point for many Catholics out there. Abuna means almost the exact same thing that Pope does. Abuna (which is Arabic) means the Father of Fathers, while as you know Pope means papa.

Poosh BaShlomo,
Yuhannon

Shlomo Yuhannon,

Actually it is my understanding that the root for father—Ab (which is the word for father in Ge'ez or in Amharic it is Abat)—is common not only to most Semitic languages but is common in general to many of the Afro-Asiatic linguistic family. It looks like we have the word for peace in common also (Selam, Salam, Shalom, Shlomo, etc.) Between Africa and the Middle East (the geographical area of the ancient and modern Afro-Asiatic languages) you will find many linguistic similarities.

God Bless

Not quite. The literal translation is "Our Father" (Abaana in the Lord's Prayer, for grammatical reasons; Yuhannon, lis'sa mush 'aarif leish "Abaana" mansoob bil alef bis'sallar Rab'baniy'yeh.)

The title is common to all priests. Hence, I found myself trying to explain to an Ethiopian friend staying with us in Beirut, that it isn't an exclusive title of a Patriarch.

She told me what the equivalent of "Father" in Amharic was. I recall the prefix Abu, but a word other than Abuna.

Aklie, what do you call the Pope of Alexandria? (Arabic: Baba)

Try explaining to a Slavic visitor to Egypt that the Patriarch of Alexandria is not an old woman.

In IC XC
Samer

Samer!,

Salamaat bir Rab'bi Yasoo

Long time no "see'

the equivalent of "Father" in Amharic.

The word for father in Amharic is Abat, in Ge'ez it is simply Ab. So the Ethiopian lady who stayed with you in Beirut confused the way the Ethiopian Church ranks the clergy and generalized from that experience.

So a spiritual father is a Nefs Abat, or a Father confessor is a Yeneseha Abat A clergy with the rank of Bishop or above is referred to as Abuna (lit: Our Father) and the Patriarch himself is the Abun. Priests (kies are addressed as Abba so and so. S

We refer to Pope Shenouda as Pope Shenouda. Baba is not really a word in Amharic, it is more slangish and is a title of affection for your father (like Daddy) so if we refer to him as Baba Shenouda it is more out of affection since we like him so much.

Try explaining to a Slavic visitor to Egypt that the Patriarch of Alexandria is not an old woman.

Yes, yes, lol. When I first came to this site and read the screen name “Nicky's Baba” I assumed that it meant the father of someone named Nicky. When I read Dr. John remark about keeping the Babas happy and then refer to them in a way that gave them a feminine character I thought he was trying to provoke somebody.

God Bless