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If such a unity were broad-minded, allowing for the amalgamation of both rich traditions with a renewed "union with Rome" (not what we have now, Heaven help us) that would be acceptable to the Orthodox - then we really would have achieved something.

Alex, I agree. The arrangement we have with Rome is not fair. Institutionally we cannot make decisions, set forth policy, canonize saints for our Church. The recent creation of two new Latin diocese in Ukraine illustrates this. With the stroke of the pen, Rome creates diocese and organizations with ease, wherever they wish in the world. Meanwhile, Chicago still does not have a bishop, our Churhc in Ukraine had to get "permission" to establish the eparchy of Donetsk-Kharkiv from Rome, becasue "eastern" Ukraine was not our "traditional" teritory of the Uniate Church. However, Peremyshyl, part of our traditinoal territory, is outside of our jurisdiction becasue it is in present day Poland. The double stanards are glaring and I know that you already know this. I guess my point is that the problems are more political than theological by any means. This is what I think keeps the Orthodox/Roman Catholic union, not issues such as purgatory, or the philioque.

But I ask again, whay should the Ukrainian Catholic Church act as a sui juis church and re-establish communion with a canonical Orthodox Ukrainian Church. I guess I must be a heretic, I think our Church should start acting unilaterally and not waiting for the command from Rome to "sit", or "roll over".

As regards to St. Sophia, due to the reality of history and the modern state of Ukraine, I can only agree with you that St. Sophia is an Othodox temple. However, in truth, one can strongly argue that the true "hier" to the metropolitan throne of Kyiv is the Greek Catholic Major Archbishop (wanna-be Patriarch wink )Lybomyr and not the Orthodox. The last independent act of the Ruthenian Church of Kyiv was the ratification of the Union of Brest.

Christ is Risen!
ALity

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But I ask again, whay should the Ukrainian Catholic Church act as a sui juis church and re-establish communion with a canonical Orthodox Ukrainian Church. I guess I must be a heretic, I think our Church should start acting unilaterally and not waiting for the command from Rome to "sit", or "roll over".


If your asking why dosnt the Ukrainian Catholic Church re establish communion with the canonical Orthodox Church (Assumingly you mean the Moscow controlled group). The Orthodox Church does not allow Catholics to recieve communion in their Churches for any reason. The only way that this would be possible is for the Ukrainian Catholics to break with Rome and become Orthodox (THey probably wouldnt be recognized as "canonical" anyway unless they were swallowed up whole by Moscow).

I seriously doubt that such a thing will happen because the Ukrainian Catholics are very loyal to Rome. In fact, they were so loyal to the Catholic faith that several million of them went underground for her from the late forties to the early nineties. Many were horribly martyred for the unia by communist oppressers who persecuted and killed them soly because they were Catholics. While this blood bath was occuring, Stalins sock puppet (Russian Orthodoxy) was happily sitting by the sidelines helping uncle Joe wipe out the very name of Catholic from the face of Ukraine. This persecution of Ukrainian Catholics is still going on today as well. Ukrainian Catholics quit frequently sheed their blood in order to deffend their churches from being forcibly taken by thugs who claim to be devout Orthodox Christians. Since it is also the younger genration who is doing alot of the bleeding in these disputes, I doubt very much that they would be very overjoyed about returning to "canonical Orthodoxy". It certainly is easy to blame something on the dreaded "latinizations: instead of actually examing the facts about why around six million Ukrainians feel the necessity to remain in union with the Catholic Church. But one must always look closely at why people do what they do.

I suggest to understand why Ukrainians dont over abundantly jumb into the arms of what passes for "canonical Orthodoxy", you read some of the testimony of the new martyrs of the Ukrainian Catholic Church and see what they suffered and were tried with, never once making a compromise, and then ask yourself why would union with Rome (The dreaded unia) be so important to these people that they, instead of just becoming Orthodox, would sacrifice their own lives for it? Also remeber to ask yourself why Ukrainian Catholics continue to remain in union with Rome despite the fact that their already is a Ukrainian Orthodox Church they could belong to? Surly their lot in life would be greatly eased if they were to go over and become Orthodox?

But what keeps them from making such a move?

Some thoughts to ponder.

Robert K.

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Robert K. -

You are missing the entire scope of my point. And thanks alot for the info about my Church. I had no idea we were underground for the last 50 years! confused

I never stated THE canonical Orthodox Church, I stated A canonical Ukrainian Orthodox Church, with the implication that, in the future, when there will be a canonical patriarch of Ukraine, barring a Russian Military invasion, or a complete collapse of society in Ukraine, that the sui juiris UGCC attempt at resorting communion and unity with this Orthodox Church while retaining union with Rome as well. The RCC continues to leave us out of the greater ecumenical movement, but I see no reason why the Ukrainian Churches should not work unilaterally toward this goal.

Christ is Risen!!
ALity

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[that the sui juiris UGCC attempt at resorting communion and unity with this Orthodox Church while retaining union with Rome as well. The RCC continues to leave us out of the greater ecumenical movement, but I see no reason why the Ukrainian Churches should not work unilaterally toward this goal.]

CHRIST IS RISEN!

And, where does doctine fit into this equation? Or is everyone just free to believe whatever they want. Or are you just gong to label everything that is in question theologumena for the sake of politics and nationalism?

The problem I, as well as many other Orthodox have is that it reads more like a political alliance than a religious one.

Right now, to be 'in communion with Rome' one is also 'under Romes authority' to certain degree no matter how much you try and cover it with sugar coated words. To be under Romes authority also means you accept its doctrine.


Ephesians 4:4-6 [Caps are mine]

There is one body, ONE FAITH, one baptism;
one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all

2 Peter 1:20

knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation,

Right now one cannot be 'in communion' with both since we do not share the same faith. This has been pointed out to the Melkites by BOTH CHURCHES.

OrthoMan

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Dear Friends,

XPUCTOC BOCKPEC!

It is too wonderful a time for me to be arguing with anyone!

But I wanted to say that both Orthodox and Catholics in Ukraine and elsewhere, of course, have had their martyrs and confessors, suffering terribly for Christ's Name.

St Sophia always was and is Orthodox.

Alex

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Why don't we (Orthodox and Catholics) share the same faith?

Daniil

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That is what we all want. Its just a matter of time.

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Dear Daniil and UC,

Even if we did share the same faith, and I think we, by and large, do, the fact that we are separated as Churches means that we are not one Church.

The Eastern Orthodox and the Oriental Orthodox have agreed, on the theological level, to a common Christology.

But they are still separated and even if they agreed on the Ecumenical Councils issue, they would still have to come together in a mutually recognized act of reunion in order to be one Church.

And I'm not telling you anything you don't already know - and you know that too smile .

As Brendan once wrote, when reunion takes place, in God's good time, both sides will probably believe that the other "came over" to them.

Alex

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Originally posted by Daniil:
Why don't we (Orthodox and Catholics) share the same faith?

Daniil

Well, there is the issue of Purgatory which we, as Greek Catholics officially accept, and the Orthodox do not.

The Dogma of the Immcaculate Conception, we officially accept, and the Orthodox do not.

The Dogma of Papal Infallibility and Supremacy, we accept and the Orthodox have a different understainding of.

OrthoMan: Thanks for your points. Well taken. smile I was getting carried away on the political and forgetting the more important spiritual and theological.

I still would like to see a united Church in Ukraine. Regardless of what has happened since the unia, The hiers of the Ruthenian Orthodox Church of Kyiv bishops is the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church and her bishops. At least, that is my belief and understanding from what I have studied. We have a place in Kyiv and at St. Sophia.

Happy Feast of the Annunciation
ALity

[ 05-09-2002: Message edited by: ALity ]

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Dear Ality,

Actually, Orthoman's position tends toward the old Russian style one that saw "politics and nationalism" in anything that wanted independence from Moscow - that's up to you to decide.

I'm an old style Greek Catholic, and Orthoman knows that well enough!

Great Russian chauvinism is subtle and it still exists, have no fear, today, not only in the Moscow Patriarchate, but also in a number of "canonical" Orthodox jurisdictions.

There are only two real issues separating Ukrainian Orthodox and Catholics today:

The Pope and his jurisdiction.

And Ukrainian unwillingness to give up their own little ecclesial principalities in favour of one united Church centred in Kyiv.

I've said my peace and I can hear the cannons roar already!

This Old Style Greek Catholic is outta here!

Alex

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BOOM

BANG


KA POW !!!!!!

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Alex and Ality:

Perhaps you can explain to me why Russification is so bad while Polanization and Latinization is OK.

OrthoMan

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OrthoMan,
All 3 are not encouraged.

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OrthoMan -

As uc stated, all three are not good. Latinization and Polonization are sore spots in the past. Yet, Russification continues to this day, because the Russian Church has been a political machine for centuries. It is a real sadness when one Orthodox Church oppresses another and supports military aggression and colonialization against their neighbor. Russia has, for centuries, tried to claim Ukraine and the legacy of Kyivan Rus' as solely their legacy and has killed millions of Ukrainians through hundreds of years of subjugation. And the Russian Orthodox Church has been, and continues to be, all too willing to support this political agenda.

Now, Latinization/Polonization is the choice of our own people. Those policies are history with respect to the majority of Poles and the Roman Church. But the ROC still wishes to control Ukrainians and tell them that they are "little" Russians.

Personally, if you are Russian Orthodox, forgive me, but I wish they would concentrate on being better Christians and better Russians in their own country and LEAVE THEIR NEIGHBORS ALONE. KYIV IS NOT YOURS, NOR THE CAVES MONASTERY, NOR POCHAIV. Let Ukraine be. And Russians can never do this, because then they would have to admit that much of their culture and identity comes from Ukraine, something their pride will never let them admit. They want to say that Russia received Byzantine Christianity from Constantinople and this is just a plain lie and perversion of history. Russian Orthodoxy descenedd from Kyiv, that is why Russians call Kyiv the "mother of all Russian cities" and the ugly reality that Kyiv is not a Russian city forces them to deal with the truth, something they have not been able to accept for 800 years.


Christ has Ascended!
From earth to heaven!
ALITY

[ 05-11-2002: Message edited by: ALity ]

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Ality - Great post, I stand applauding. cool

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