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http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_politics_100021_13/04/2004_41648

This Week

Tuesday

Ecumenical Patriarch Vartholomaios conducts liturgy marking 800th
anniversary of the sacking of Constantinople during the Fourth Crusade.
Cardinal Philippe Barbarin, Archbishop of Lyon, who has said the sacking in
1204 was a "disgrace" for the Catholic Church, will attend the service in
Istanbul and will speak.

Dear Balaban,

Hopefully, the Russian Orthodox Church will one day hold a similar event to condemn the "synod" of 1946 and apologise to the Ukrainian Catholic Church and the Catholic Church as a whole.

Alex

Dear Balaban,

I hope that one day the Imperial Czarist Russian Orthodox Church will apologize for having arrested and deported our former Metropolitan Andrej Sheptytsky to Siberia during the first World War where he was imprisoned and suffered.

Perhaps the Imperial Czarist Russian Orthodox Church (I'm not sure who represents this church anymore) could also apologize for attempting to usurp his / our native Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church during this same era.

Or maybe that was also brotherly reunification ?

Hritzko

To be honest with you I don't know from what point and time our Northern neighbors should start apologizing from.
Lauro

Dear Hritzko,

It was the noted Russophile newspaper, "Subcarpathian Rus'" that took offense at Met. Andrei's reference to the ROC as a "government church" after the Russians invaded Galicia - and he did this in a public sermon to encourage the people not to leave the Greek-Catholic Church.

It was after this paper attacked Sheptytsky for his statement that the matter came to the attention of the Russian military authorities and he was arrested.

Alex

Dear Orthodox-Catholic,

You are saying that during WW1 the minority russophilic czarist newspaper in Galicia denounced our beloved Metropolitan (and near saint) Andrej because he told his flock to remain loyal to their Greek Catholic Church and not join the Imperial ROC (which was like a government department), and that this hierarch directive was enough for the Czar's army to have him deported to Siberia.

Was this not the same scenario played out by the the Red Czar otherwise known as Stalin in relation to our beloved Metropolitan Joseph Slipyj immediatelly following World War 2 ?
The local russophilic communist minority denounced Metropolitan Joseph for condemming the Russian communists and their puppet church the ROC and off it was to Siberia for a 18 years of hard labour in a concentration camp.

EEEKKKK !

Sounds like we are next on the Czar's / Commisars list. Maybe Hallmark has a card for such occassions.

Hritzko

Is it pathetic to celebrate something horrible that happened 800 years ago? Why would somebody want to KEEP DWELLING on the past, only to keep the hatred against the Catholic Church alive (which is a very un-Christian grudge).

Many times the popes in the past have publically apologize for the sacking, most recently His Holiness, John Paul II, during the Jubilee 2000.

How many more times shall we apologize before they stop commemorating the sacking? The past is the past, let it go, let's move forward as we strive to be one as Christ is one with the Father.

SPDundas
Deaf Byzantine

Dear SPDundas,

The article said that a liturgy would be performed. That is definitely not the same as a 'celebration'. I see it more as being a solemn day of reflection and forgiveness. I assure you that the Greek Orthodox community from Istanbul, to Athens, to New York and beyond--has forgiven, and accepted with great love, the apology of His Holiness Pope John Paul II for the sins of *members* of the Roman Catholic Church in the past.

The sacking of Constantinople was a great tragedy, and it was condemned by Pope Innocent III, at that time. In an unfortunately little known but very important statement in a letter to Boniface of Montferrat, commander of the crusade, the Pope wrote:

"You rashly violated the purity of your vows; and, turning your arms not aginst the Saracens (Muslims) but against Christians, you applied yourselves not to the recovery of Jerusalem, but to seize Constantinople, preferring earthly to heavenly riches...These 'soldiers of Christ' who should have turned their swords against the infidel have steeped them in Christian blood, sparing neither religion nor age nor sex...the Latins have given example only of perversity and works of darkness. No wonder the Greeks call them dogs!"

The biggest misconception up until the visit of His Holiness the Pope to His Beatitude Archbishop Christodoulos of Athens and the apology that ensued, was the perpetuation of the myth that Pope Innocent III had called for this crusade against Constantinople. That myth in the Greek Orthodox communities mentioned above has been, thankfully, dispelled.

In Christ,
Alice

Dear Alice,

You are such a kind person, your gentleness and kindness have moved my heart. You are a good example of Christian love and charity. I should try to follow your footsteps.

It's just that, seeing images of Orthodox monks and clerics waving a sign saying "Go Home to Rome" when John Paul II came to Greece, have burned to my brain.

I, too, must forgive myself and those who have ignorance to the truth (both sides' ignornace).

So, okay, forgive me.

SPDundas
Deaf Byzantine

To those who insist on russophobia, I would suggest then they be prepared to celebrate "rituals of attonement" for the brutality and utter perfidy for the circumstances leading up to the unias of 1596, 1646, and 1692-96 as well as the modus operandi of how (in quite a sergianist manner) certain churches and areas were reclaimed to unia in the aftermath of the fall of communism. Sanctimoniousness advances not dialogue.

As far as the Greek situation and the useage of the term "myth". An ideology shaped on ecumenism and outright distortion of historical fact to prop up "good feelings" without an insistence on understanding, appreciating and overcoming the challenges of the past relies on one primary tool of expression: dishonesty. As such, "politically correct" spin serves not dialogue but rather prevents it from truly coming about.

Dear Balaban,

It was Poland that should apologise for what happened at the Unia of Brest and its aftermath.

As for the taking back of the Churches after the fall of the Soviet Union and of its official Soviet Orthodox church, those churches were stolen from the Ukrainian Catholic Church in 1946 by the Soviet authorities and handed over to its "church."

To take back what was stolen from you, and this at gun-point, is not theft.

It is simply setting things aright.

I'm glad you are in such a good mood today!

Alex

Dear Hritzko,

You are more than correct here!

And Met. Andrej IS a saint, but has not yet been formally recognized as such by the Vatican for perhaps less than totally spiritual reasons (?)

Many of our parishes have his icon and so we should just begin to hold public liturgical services in his honour (and that of Patriarch Joseph the Confessor too?).

I understand that an akathist to him is around somewhere

What a bright, sunny day!

Alex

Dear SPDundas,

Thank you for the kind words!

Forget about those monks from Esphigmenou monastery. (they, infact, have been officially evicted from the Holy Mountain because they refuse to commemorate the Ecumenical Patriarch because of his good relations with Rome ) They are simply fundamentalists and fanatics in the worst way.
It saddens me to see some Orthodox, like those monks, and some individuals, go back to what Jesus came to change: that being that they follow the letter of the law rather than the spirit.

They, in essence, discard Christianity by making the laws and (their perceived) 'correctness' of Orthodoxy their idol and their God. They forget that Christianity is all about the heart. Without the heart, the beautiful guidance our respective churches give the faithful, is empty...for what good is it if the seed falls upon barren ground instead of fertile soil?

I do want to assure you that most Greeks of good will were just as aghast as you. I remember my husband being on the phone with someone in Greece who had just watched the news, and the person commented on the 'vulgar actions and statements of those monks'...also, their actions were positively denounced in the Greek press both here and abroad.

Good to see you back on the board, I don't think you have been around much(?)

With much love in Christ our Risen Lord and Saviour,
Alice

P.S. I am sorry that some people here don't remember that forgiveness is the primary directive of Christianity. Infact, my priest went so far as to emphasize this point this Holy Wednesday, that he recommended that anyone who was harboring lack of forgiveness in his or her heart, NOT come up to receive the sacrament of Holy Unction...it was a very, very powerful message!

This is an interesting thread . . .

Thanks for the quote from the I-man, Alice. He is one of my favorite Popes. The man who was instrumental in his election to the Papacy, Cardinal Ugolino of Segni, later became Pope Gregory IX, and initiated a dialogue (through some Franciscans) with Patriarch Germanos of Constantinople.

I hope to write a doctoral dissertation on Ugolino . . .

In Christ,

LatinTrad