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Dear DJS,

This is somewhat of a repost but certainly applicable to your perception of matters.

Don't you think that history and specifically the doctrine of Papal Infallibility Supremacy presupposes the notion that it is within the context of Latin doctrine for the Roman Catholic Church to implicitly absorb the Orthodox Church.

We are not blind, would you not agree that the Roman Catholic practice to this day of removing souls from the Orthodox faith is kind of a imperialistic act, even though the Latin's tell us to our faces that is not what they seek to do while they are in fact doing it? I'm not saying it is sinister, but surely you could agree that such behavior is a violation of the trust that is necessary when entering into dialog. When trust is continually violated, it is not difficult to remain in that dialog, yet to this day the Orthodox Church still speaks with the Roman Catholic Church.

Since the Latin's consider us the Orthodox to have valid sacraments and renders the notion of a "Sister Church" status to us but somehow lacking mostly because we refuse to be subjected to the Bishop of Rome" and accept the Latin understandings, perhap's you can explain why the Latin's believe that removing Orthodox faith from the Orthodox is so necessary?

Since you have access to a computer here is a simple example which seems to me to at least frimly suggest that indeed the Latin's actively seek to remove the Orthodox Faithful from the Orthodox faith, even when tell us they are not interested in pouching souls from Holy Orthodoxy.

What is the correct ecumenical and theological understanding of the following?

There is a international Roman Catholic Television Station called EWTN it is out there with the blessings of the Roman Catholic Church and the Roman Catholic Hierarchy. It is used for ministry purposes. It is broadcast to many parts of the world. One of the programs that is often watched is called the Journey Home with Marcus Grodi who speaks of conversion stories to the Roman Catholic Church. Marcus Grodi also has a associated Roman Catholic website the front page reads as follows.

The purpose of The Coming Home Network International (CHNetwork) is to provide fellowship, encouragement and support for pastors and laymen of other traditions (Protestant, Orthodox, etc..) who are somewhere along the journey or have already converted to the Catholic Church. The CHNetwork is committed to assisting and standing beside all inquirers, serving as a friend and an advocate

Here is the website link. www.chnetwork.org [chnetwork.org]

I think the Orthodox interpretations are the reflections and indicative of sincere and reasonable minds.

Perhaps anything I would say would be dismissed because that is what you are comfortable doing usually.

In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin

Dear DJS,

Proslytism is not a monopoly of the West these days. In my personal experiences I have, unfortunately, heard fellow Orthodox prosletyze to Catholics.

I am sorry if some of my brethren seem to present the Orthodox as perfect. We aren't. We fall into the sin of pride just as easily as the next faith tradition!!

Having admitted that little secret ...

Wouldn't it be nice if we were one united Church again, where one lung or faith tradition would not see the other lung/faith tradition as 'taking' *their* faithful, but, rather would see them as having equal validity and fullness of Apostolic faith and salvation, and could accept their different cultural forms of worship.

Wouldn't it be nice if our mutual love for Christ could transcend feelings of triumphalism (whether of the Western tradition *or* the Eastern tradition) and painful historical memories.

Wouldn't it be nice if we could move forward in UNITY to shine the light of Christ as brothers and sisters of the Apostolic Church as a witness to the world?

Maybe I am a dreamer, but I believe that all things are possible for those that truly love God.

In humility, let's pray for that day, DJS, and not let others get us down so much with their words...

Have a blessed Labor Day weekend,
a sister in Christ, the Lord and Saviour of EAST and WEST,
Alice

Amen!

Alice, my sister,

You, as always, express true Christian love - of the kind that all of us who proclaim ourselves to be of the Holy, Catholic, Orthodox, and Apostolic Churches ought to emulate.

You missed your calling, you should have been a theologian. I suspect that if the halls of such ecclesial centers as Constantinople, Moscow, and Rome were staffed by folks of your ilk, the timeline, to the day on which the descriptor "One" could be authentically used to list the marks of a Church that proclaimed our common faith, would be very much foreshortened.

God bless you and may He grant you many years in health, happiness, and your witness to true ecumenism.

Neil

Dearest Neil,

I very humbly thank you for your very kind words.

...As for ever being a theologian...well, I don't know about that one! LOL!

What I will say is that it is unfortunate that in the quest for theological and religious knowledge, sometimes the mind takes precedence over the heart...

In my humble opinion, Christianity is not about endless debates of 'correct doctrine' and 'true faith', but about humility, love, forgiveness, compassion, understanding, and the quiet whispers of the Holy Spirit to the heart.

With love in Christ,
Alice

Alice, I think you are on to something there

Matthew, I hate to tell you this, but many of the Roman Catholic Hierarchy would be delighted if the earth opened and swallowed EWTN. It does not speak for the Church, and is sometimes a loose cannon that fires where ever it pleases. There are people who convert from Roman Catholicism to Orthodoxy, and the reverse, because they WANT to. No one makes them do it. Granted, neither Church should actively try to take members from the other, but sometimes people do change for reasons of their own.

Matthew,

Thanks for sharing your interesting perspectives.

I will add to ByzTn's remark that the other website is for a group that is similarly not from the Bishops's offices, but formed by formerly Protestant/Anglican who are now Catholic and offering to discuss/help anyone making a similar journey. It is not reasonable to expect that Catholics would not welcome others into their Communion. It will inevitably be the case that some will, in their welcoming spirit, step beyond boundaries considered approapirate by their Bishops and the Vatican. You might like to imagine that the Catholic communion is a monolith marching in lock-step under the dictates fo a depotic Pope, but surely you can see that this view is wrong. Accordingly, it is just unfair judge the church by the actions a few of its members.

Your word-choice "removal of souls" is interesting. It connotes passivity on the part of the transitioning souls, and activity by those luring them in. It is a tendentious word choice that doesn't advance discussion. More to the point it is not particularly relevant. Even the among churches who lack nothing in their sisterhood, some transition inevitably takes place. You presumably have witnessed discussions begun on this board by RC's who are considering ritual transfers to BC. Clearly there is no sense that "sisterhood" means disallowing all such transfers, or that such transfer ipso facto represent an unsisterly "removal" of souls.

Daer DJS,

The Roman Catholic Hierarchy is involved in and has knowledge of what happens on EWTN and the Coming Home Network, irrespective of what you have suggested. I don't want to fight with you, I will say this and leave here.

Here is some information regarding the aforementioned matter. In cooperation with the Catholic Bishops, the Coming Home Network International was established to help inquiring clergy as well as laity of other traditions return home and then be at home in the Catholic Church, by providing...

You can believe whatever you want and call may perspective and word choice interesting or whatever. There is no need to escalate the matter I understand your position.

God bless you and I mean that.

In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin

I have not suggested that there is zero involvement. I have not suggested that there is zero knowledge. I have not suggested zero cooperation. I have suggested only that knowledge and oversight are not total, and control not absolute.


You may claim to understand my position, but what you write suggests otherwise.

A reasonable person should view occasional minor deviations from ideality as inevitable and of little consequence - in the noise. Not as proof of duplicitous insincerity. Really, except for avid conspiracy theorisits, the threshold of proof of bad intent ought to be far, far higher than you present. And the rareness of soul "removal' should be seen as far more probative of actual intent.

You're right again DJS I don't understand your position,

"I will add to ByzTn's remark that the other website is for a group that is similarly not from the Bishops's offices,"

I don't want to get into your definition of the Bishop's offices or absolute control or some form of exact puppet manipulation or whatever...........

Perhaps not. With the increasing Muslim populations in many countries which once held Orthodox and/or Catholic majorities perhaps there will be much different battles ahead. Perhaps both sides had better speed up the 'dialog'.

Marya

AMEN! Also, the devil's laughing at us Christians, since we are soooo busy bickering and fighting over stupid trivial things, the Muslims who are very UNIFIED and strong, are spreading and growing increasingly rapidly!

Personally, I do not trust that Patriarch Alexy's words are genuine, but rather a "polite" "thank you" then after it's all over he probably turns around and whisper "Catholics are suckers, I've got the Icon now without having the Pope over here..hahahah!"

I think this man is the most uncharitable I have ever seen. The Pope has that right to visit his faithful, but wouldn't do it out of genuine respect for Patriarch. Where is the Patriarch's respect? What about all these years in USSR where they killed off so many Catholics, forcing them to be Orthodox against their will, etc.? Perhaps out of good faith that the Orthodox are no longer doing that, they can show that by letting the Pope into Russia and visit his own people?

Makes me feel like that the way Patriarch is handling the Russian Church, being so spiteful and hateful to the Catholic Church and that hell would freeze over before this man would have a charitable heart.

Makes me so angry and sick to the stomach that here we are, Christians, supposedly a religion of LOVE, bicker and fight while the enemies are growing. I wish to slap these hiearchs silly and make them take a hard long look at what's happening in this world.

Sorry, but I have to vent out.

SPDundas
Deaf Byzantine

(PS, not as personal attack to Patriarch, but I think the hat is UGLY. I know that other Orthodox hiearchs wear that kind of hat also. What's up with that? Couldn't they come up with a better hat that looks good?)

And who did the Icon of the Mother of God of Kazan belong to in the first place?

"We'll give you back what is rightfully yours, as long as you agree to our terms"

Christian

What on earth are you talking about???

Dear spdundas,

With respect, even if you feel that the Patriarch is uncharitable, I think your post is also 'borderline' uncharitable. I understand it is the convention in this place, to always speak respectfully of the heads of Churches, employing the correct and respectful forms of address.

I thought it was a nice letter.

Elias