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Originally Posted by p.a.koroluk
Originally Posted by asianpilgrim
And please, answers like "they are all imports from Russia" (which was once provided to me on another forum discussion) won't make the cut because as is well known it is Ukraine that tends to provide priests for the Russian Orthodox Church and not vice versa.

It may just be me, but I must in honesty write that I tend to be suspicious of questions put in this format. I will, however, assume that this is an honest query, and attempt to provide my own speculation, although I do not believe it is, as you state, "a simple question".

I believe the biggest factor is that the UOC-MP remains in control of more parishes, even if they would rather be part of another church. Many priests, especially those coming from the ROC days, are reluctant to give up their homes, jobs, and pensions. Please remember that the UOC-MP in most places inherited the property of the ROC. Therefore, unless a parish takes actice steps to re-register from the UOC-MP to another church, it will remain listed as a UOC-MP church. All the priests serving those parishes are counted as priests of the Moscow Patriarchate.

Even when a parish does try to re-register, there are obstacles because allocation of church buildings in Ukraine is decided in the first instance by local authorities, and is therefore subject to influence outside of the local congregations. Most famously, for example, in a case decided on June 14, 2007 and cited in the U.S. State Department's International Religious Freedom Report (2007), the European Court of Human Rights ruled that the Kyiv city administration was violating the rights of the faithful of the Svyato-Mykhaylivska parish in Kyiv by not allowing them to reregister from the UOC-MP to the UOC-KP. That is, the faithful of that parish overwhelmingly wish to be a part of the UOC-KP, but the civil authorities force their church (and its priest) to remain in the UOC-MP.

That is just one documented case. In fact, even though a survey in December of 2006 showed that 52% of the adults in Kyiv suported the Kyivan Patriarchate, compared to only 8% for the Moscow Patriarchate, the Kyiv City Council that same year granted the Moscow Patriarchate title to 10 churches and only 1 to the Kyivan Patriarchate (and one to the UAOC, whose followers represent less than 1% of the population of Kyiv).

Additionally, the UOC-MP is able to draw on graduates from not just the seminaries in Ukraine, but also to send students to study in Russia, and has more money to send more students to school. Until recently, there was a realistic hope that the UOC-MP would receive autocephaly within a realistic future, so it would not be hard to imagine that there were future priests who were willing to take that route.

It would also not be incorrect to note that there has in the past 12-15 years indeed been a visible influx of burly Russian-speaking monastics taking up residence in the UOC-MP's monasteries in Ukraine, most famously and visibly in Rivne. All of these count as clergy, as well.

While I do make an honest effort to answer your question, I am more comfortable simply reporting on what is, as I do in the post above which you question, rather than to try to answer why things are, as you ask me to do.


Yours in Christ,

Priest Paul Koroluk, UOC-KP

I highly appreciate the response that you have given.

Are you saying that Kyiv City Council is very pro-Moscow?

Last edited by asianpilgrim; 09/04/09 02:24 PM.
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Originally Posted by StuartK
I One would think that Russia's behavior over the last decade would more than speak for itself, and that Asian Pilgrim is engaged in a defense of the indefensible.

I'm not blind, Stuart. I just refuse to see things in black and white, and life has taught me to appreciate every nuance that I could see.

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It does make me wonder if elements of the UGCC will join an autocephalous Ukrainian Patriarchate once it is recognized.

I don't think this will happen. The members of the UGCC see themselves, from the way I understand it, Orthodox in Communion with Rome and they also already claim to be a Patriarchate (which is not recognized by Rome but I think it should be) but the people in Ukraine recognize it as such. If the Ukrainian Orthodox Church was to reunite with Rome in the future then yes I see the UGCC merging with the UOC.

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Originally Posted by asianpilgrim
If the NYT is the model of appeasement, I shudder to think what "biased" looks like.

I believe the term you're looking for (for the NYT) is "fellow traveler" (or possibly, "useful idiot").

hawk

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I believe the term you're looking for (for the NYT) is "fellow traveler" (or possibly, "useful idiot").

The Soviets themselves liked the term "govnoeyed".

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Originally Posted by StuartK
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I believe the term you're looking for (for the NYT) is "fellow traveler" (or possibly, "useful idiot").

The Soviets themselves liked the term "govnoeyed".

Good grief! If I had used that word my father would have washed my mouth out with soap and then he would probably have given me a clip around the ears for misspelling it.

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I was thinking the same thing.

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I would remind all posting here once again, that there is only one Orthodox Church in Ukraine. It is headed by His Beatitude Metropolitan Vladimir Sabodan. There are in fact no other Orthodox Jurisdictions in the country.

A beard and a cross does not an Orthodox Clergyman make.

I continue to pray for CANONICAL Ukrainian Autocephally.


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Nonetheless, it accurately reflects what they--and I--thought of people who bought into their story and carried water for them. People, who, for the most part, have never been called to account for this (imagine Nazi sympathizers getting a free pass for all the years since the end of World War II), and who have never expressed the slightest degree of remorse or contrition for backing a system responsible for the deaths of up to sixty million people. Indeed, many of these, um, "useful idiots" are lionized by our society (Paul Robeson, I.F. Stone, the Hollywood Ten). The mindset still exists today, though thankfully reduced to a fringe (celebrities, academics and looney-left Congresswomen who laud Castro). Nonetheless, I still get the urge to hurl--or perhaps throw a punch--whenever I see one of those disgusting Che posters or t-shirts. Imagine wearing a shirt with a picture of Heinrich Himmler on it! But Che gets iconographic shirts and posters, and a series of reverential films. The only thing that kept Che from being a murderer on the same scale as Himmler was lack of opportunity.

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Originally Posted by StuartK
Indeed, many of these, um, "useful idiots" are lionized by our society (Paul Robeson, I.F. Stone, the Hollywood Ten)
With that observation on a post that demonstrates the extent to which this thread has diverged from being about News and become, instead, a forum for pontificating political beliefs, this thread is closed.

Anyone wishing to conduct a discussion on the news topic - if there remains any meaningful discussion to be had on it - is invited to open a new thread.

Many years,

Neil


"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
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