www.byzcath.org Forums News & Events Church News Ukrainian Churches set out on road to unity

Likely as many Ukrainian Orthodox faithful (KP or UAOC) would rather have his involvement than the MP. As Fr. Serge has mentioned, these are the beginning stages, will be done from a distance, and we will see, with God's help, where it goes - including the potential involvement of the EP. His Beatitude's help should be welcomed rather than feared in a land which was originally dependent on him rather than Moscow.

I am sure the Ecumenical Patriarch will help and will try to have an autocephalous Ukrainian Patriarkate.

The problem is that even by the present EP's own statements, Ukraine is in the patriarchate of Moscow, which, btw, is the translated See of Kiev (the reason why at enthronement of the PoM, the Metropolitan of Kiev hands him the staff of St. Peter, who transferred the see to Moscwo). According to the canons, the Patriarch of Moscow is fully within his rights to have the Ecumenical Patriarch deposed for meddling in Moscow's jurisdiction. Hopefully such meddling would sink the EP's Episcopal assembly scheme for the Orthodox, among other monstrosities.

Btw, the EP is His Divine All-Holiness, not his beatitude.

LOL. What makes you so sure of that?

Patriarch Bartholomew wants to clearify the situation and to have a canonical Orthodox Church in Ukraine.Moscow wants only to take the different orthodox Churches in Ukraine under its own "canonical territory".

[quote=Fr.Coryolan] Patriarch Bartholomew wants to clearify the situation and to have a canonical Orthodox Church in Ukraine.Moscow wants only to take the different orthodox Churches in Ukraine under its own "canonical territory". [/quote]

1) There is a canonical Orhtodox Church in Ukraine-MP.
2) Ukraine is in his own canonical territory.
3) The EP has tried to seize jurisdictions from Moscow in Western Europe. Twice now the courts have sided with Moscow's rights.
4) There are no signs the EP has autocephaly planned for his exarchate in North America, including the Ukrainians he has there.

The EP's actions in Estonia speak volumes, where he presumed to set up a Church and put a Greek from Congo (!) who didn't speak a word of Estonian in charge, and then demand that the Estonian speaking bred, born, baptized, ordained and consecrated Patriarch of Moscow (Alexei was Estonian) recall the Estonian speaking bred, born, baptized, ordained and consecrated Metropolitan Cornelius Yakobs (who, btw, was sentenced to 10 years for possession of religious books by the Soviets) of Estonia from Estonia, his birthplace. No autocephaly in the works for the EP's Estonia.

"Patriarch Bartholomew wants to clearify the situation and to have a canonical Orthodox Church in Ukraine.Moscow wants only to take the different orthodox Churches in Ukraine under its own "canonical territory"."

I am sorry Father with all due respect, neither You nor I nor anyone else here knows fully what "Moscow wants" to do, or even else what His Holiness Patriarch Kiril wants to do.

I think we may all be surprised with how things turn out in Ukraine.

Constantinople states it will not act unilaterally without Moscow.

06 October 2009
Constantinople Patriarchate considers Metropolitan Vladimir as a key figure in the Ukrainian Orthodoxy

Kiev, October 6, Interfax - Constantinople views Metropolitan Vladimir of Kiev and All Ukraine as a spiritual leader of the Ukrainian Orthodox believers.

Thus, the representatives of the Constantinople Patriarchate at a meeting with Metropolitan Vladimir in Kiev "highlighted that Metropolitan had united all Orthodox believers of Ukraine, regardless of their jurisdiction," the Ukrainian Orthodox Church website reports.

Constantinople representatives also thanked the head of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church "for his efforts to unite Orthodox believers of Ukraine" and said that the purpose of their visit to Ukraine was to assist the country in overcoming schisms.

"They emphasized, however, that the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople would not act unilaterally, but only in close cooperation with the Ukrainian Orthodox Church," the report says.

Metropolitan Vladimir, in his turn, awarded his guests and Pyotr Yuschenko, head of the For Local Ukraine NGO, who was also present at the meeting, with anniversary orders "The 450th Anniversary of Bringing the Pochayev Icon of Holy Mother to Volyn".

http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=dujour&div=19

I am sure the Patriarch Bartholomew does not look for further divisions but for a real dialogue in Ukraine.

To be honest, Father, the uncanonical incursion of his delegates into the canonical territory of the Russian Orthodox Church raises doubts about his intentions not to risk further division.

But at least this meeting with the head of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church will defuse the situation. As matters stand, Constantinople is in violation of some major canons prohibiting incursion into the territory of another Church and if Russia pressed the matter it could agitate among the Local Churches for Constantinople to be rebuked.

Ukraine is not the canonical territory of the Russian orthodox Church but it is a territory where Moscow still wants to have its influence.

Father,

You must be aware that over the last year Constantinople has made at least two official statements that the only canonical Church in the Ukraine is the Moscow Patriarchate.

Likewise when representatuves of almost all the canonical Churches from around the Orthodox world attended the celebrationss in Kiev with Metropolitan Vladimir of Kiev they also affirmed that Moscow is the canonical Church of the Ukraine. The matter seems undisputed among the Local Churches of Orthodoxy.

Nobody denies the Russian Orthodox Church is a canonical Church so its hierarchy in Ukraine is canonical too.Regarding the "canonical territory" it's rather a controversial issue.

Of course, we could always open up the matter of how the Metropolia was transferred from Kiev to Moscow, and later, the irregularities surrounding the elevation of Moscow to patriarchal status. I mean, if we want to talk about canonicity and all that.

[quote=StuartK]Of course, we could always open up the matter of how the Metropolia was transferred from Kiev to Moscow, and later, the irregularities surrounding the elevation of Moscow to patriarchal status. I mean, if we want to talk about canonicity and all that. [/quote]

Please do. Pure gold fears no fire.