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Originally Posted by Latin Catholic
I note with some sadness a polarizing trend in U.S. politics which leads to bouts of hysterical extremism on both sides of the aisle. To some Democrats, Mr. Bush was/is the devil incarnate. Now, in revenge, some Republicans denounce Mr. Obama as the antichrist. I had always thought of Americans as being rather down-to-earth, practical, sensible people. Perhaps I was wrong.
Being an American and living among Americans, I find such generalizations are about as meaningful as they are when applied to Frenchmen, Chinese, Egyptians, etc. It can, of course, be comforting to think of various nationalities a certain way. I of course would rather be thought of as practical, sensible, and down to earth, rather than wasteful, arrogant, ignorant, materialistic, and self-entitled (another stereotype about Americans), but in end, people are just people wherever you go in the world.

American politics are, in my opinion, thoroughly vapid, and the amount of choices we are given, and the differences between the parties, are gravely over-emphasized. Perhaps it is our lack of real choices that compels some of us to spew so much hyperbolic vitriol over the slightest variation. I believe the entire political system to be basically anti-Christian and worldly in character, including the so-called Christian Right.

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Who is to say that some of us are not prophets?
Or don't you believe God raises up prophets for our times?
Stephanos I

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Americans might not always be practical and sensible but they are at least not wishy washy and willing to sell out the Christian faith like in some countries. Bodies in which anything goes. God forbid the day we become like those nations.
Stephanos I

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Originally Posted by Slavophile
This thread has now run into 5 pages, and I still haven't figured out what evokes such an extreme reaction against Obama.
I think a large part of why much of America dislikes President Obama is that during the election campaign most Americans (i.e., who wound up voting for him) didn't really pay attention to what he said. The agenda he offered was basic socialism together with a foreign policy that placed all countries on an equal moral level (including dictatorships / communists / etc.) and conducts his foreign policy based on that. Now they find he is actually (together with similar of his party in Congress) working to enact his socialist policies. So they are upset. But the number of people who unfairly tarnish him are minuscule compared to those who trashed President Bush during the past 8 years and I really have no respect for those those trashed Bush and now complain about the few who trash Obama (or sat silently while Bush was trashed and complain now that people trash Obama). But in a way he is asking to be disrespected. Any policy disagreement with him has his minions labeling those disagreeing as "racists". Plus he actually has an orchestrated effort to attack himself. The whole "Birth Certificate" issue is orchestrated by his minions, and his refusal to answer questions on such topics plays into the hands of the orechestrating it all. [He follows Saul D. Alinsky's "Rules for Radicals" to confuse and defeat his opponents, and has admitted this in the past.]

I don't consider him to be either evil or an idiot. I do consider him to be greatly inexperienced and arrogant (but so are a lot of politicians of all parties). I disagree with him on life issues (he is really pro-death on a number if you listen to him and believes that the lives of certain classes of people don't deserve protection). And I disagree wit him other issues (socialism of his ilk just doesn't work, and big governments tend to take away freedoms no matter how well intentioned they might be). Etc.

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Politics by definition are worldly in character. There is no way avoiding that.

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Originally Posted by Administrator
Plus he actually has an orchestrated effort to attack himself. The whole "Birth Certificate" issue is orchestrated by his minions, and his refusal to answer questions on such topics plays into the hands of the orechestrating it all.

Wow! That's even crazier than the "birther" issue itself. Care to provide any evidence?

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Originally Posted by Latin Catholic
Politics by definition are worldly in character. There is no way avoiding that.

You're right. But it's possible to engage the world in a way motivated by the Gospel. I don't see anyone doing that.

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Originally Posted by Administrator
[...] Plus he actually has an orchestrated effort to attack himself. The whole "Birth Certificate" issue is orchestrated by his minions, and his refusal to answer questions on such topics plays into the hands of the orechestrating it all. [He follows Saul D. Alinsky's "Rules for Radicals" to confuse and defeat his opponents, and has admitted this in the past.]

[...]

Forgive my scepticism, but this sounds a bit odd to me. Are you saying the "birther" movement has been organized by Obama's own supporters? Can you back this up with actual evidence?

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No, but they did throw chum in the water and wait for the sharks.

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Originally Posted by Embatl'dSeraphim
Originally Posted by Administrator
Plus he actually has an orchestrated effort to attack himself. The whole "Birth Certificate" issue is orchestrated by his minions, and his refusal to answer questions on such topics plays into the hands of the orechestrating it all.
Wow! That's even crazier than the "birther" issue itself. Care to provide any evidence?
You are very capable of using a search engine. Bob Beckel (a Democrat talking head and strategist) credited another Dem by the name of Larry Johnson for orchestrating a good deal of the birther issue. Obama has supposedly provided only a copy of a "Certification of Live Birth" rather then a copy of he actual "Birth Certificate". He is said to have done this on purpose, to allow the organization of the Birther thing.

I don't question his birth in Hawaii, but I do see him making political use of the Birthers (which supposedly started among the Hillary contingent, and is understandable in that light).

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Originally Posted by Administrator
Originally Posted by Embatl'dSeraphim
Originally Posted by Administrator
Plus he actually has an orchestrated effort to attack himself. The whole "Birth Certificate" issue is orchestrated by his minions, and his refusal to answer questions on such topics plays into the hands of the orechestrating it all.
Wow! That's even crazier than the "birther" issue itself. Care to provide any evidence?
You are very capable of using a search engine. Bob Beckel (a Democrat talking head and strategist) credited another Dem by the name of Larry Johnson for orchestrating a good deal of the birther issue. Obama has supposedly provided only a copy of a "Certification of Live Birth" rather then a copy of he actual "Birth Certificate". He is said to have done this on purpose, to allow the organization of the Birther thing.

I've searched using various terms like "birth certificate" + "bob beckel", or "larry johnson" + birthers. Why can't I find anything? Maybe I'm inept at Google, but I suspect that if there were the slightest bit of credible evidence, it would be all over the place by now. When you come out with a wild claim like this, the burden of proof is on you. Where's the proof?

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Before accusing others of lying you really ought to learn to use a search engine. A Google search on "Obama Birth Certificate" brings "about 1,430,000" links. The second link [snopes.com] provides a reasonable decent (though still incomplete) account of thew whole silly issue. Adding the words "Larry Johnson" (a Hillary supporter) brings even more, together with an account here [noquarterusa.net] and others that say the whole thing started on the "Daily Kos" (a fairly radically left website). Further links show Democrats attacking him for starting the whole thing. And only much later do some Republicans jump on the band wagon. In later links there are many accusations of how the whole thing is orchestrated. I never put full stock in bloggers but all the evidence suggests the accusations regarding orchestration have some basis in reality (certainly enough not to place the whole blame on dumb Republicans). But I know that you, by nature it seems, assume everyone else is lying until they provide you with proof, but that you somehow know even the real understanding of Catholic theology where the popes have gotten it wrong.

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OK, let me try a different tack. you seem to be approaching this from a European perspective of what is conservative and liberal. Through mainstream American eyes, (and I am generalizing here, so bear with me) a European styled conservative would be considered a radical liberal by American standards. The European concept of center, left and right is very much far to the left of what an American would consider it to be. Now bear with me here. When London held the G20 summit, damage estimates from the anarchists were estimated at 7 million pounds sterling. Now when Pittsburgh held the same summit, damage costs were about $50,000. Why the discrepancy? Simple my friend. In Allegheny County, where Pittsburgh is the County seat, 1 in 5 people have permits to carry concealed firearms. It wasn't the police the radicals were afraid of. Here is a quote from the local television coverage.
http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/news/s_645208.html
"Thursday afternoon, protesters marched illegally, and several of the crowds turned ugly. As one large group, wielding signs and wearing black bandanas over their faces, marched into Bloomfield, police got the sort of backup that doesn't come in most other cities.

People came out of their homes, businesses and bars along Liberty Avenue, carrying baseball bats and pickaxes, screaming at the protesters to leave and telling them they "aren't going to mess up Bloomfield," police on the scene said.

Huss said yesterday those were some of his favorite reports of the week.

"I love it," Huss said. "We've had a lot of those reports. 'This is our house.' That's how I classify those residents. 'This is our house, and you don't come into our house and do this.' It was with great pride that we saw those residents."

Are you beginning to see the difference between American and European thinking?

Now as to your question regarding Socialism. Socialism basically boils down to taking from me and giving to you. This runs against every ounce of self dependence and self reliance that is the hallmark of Americanism. Now whether you are espousing menshivikism or bolshevikism, i.e., socialism or communism, to an American, it is still 2 sides of the same coin. A nanny, in the case of socialism, or a despot, in the case of bolshevikism, taking from my efforts and rewarding the undeserving. Thanks, but no thanks. I work hard for what I have, and it'll be a cold day in you know where before I give up what I have worked hard for so that the products of the entitlement system can get a new big screen TV in their taxpayer provided housing so that they can be amused whist they procreate, producing yet another generation of the dependent. As far as charity for the oppressed and underprivileged, not a problem. Let ME decide who to help, not some bureaucrat in Washington who lines his own pockets at the same time.
Is this starting to make sense to you? Mr Obama and ilk would like to take away MY lifestyle and try to make us more like Europeans. Thank you, but take a hike. More and more Americans are starting to wake up to this reality. Firearm sales are through the roof, and stores cannot keep ammunition in stock. We are preparing for the day when we just might have to clean house. We've done it before and we can easily do it again.
I'll save health care for another time, when I can give you the inside story.

Alexandr

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Originally Posted by Slavipodvizhnik
Is this starting to make sense to you? Mr Obama and ilk would like to take away MY lifestyle and try to make us more like Europeans. Thank you, but take a hike. More and more Americans are starting to wake up to this reality. Firearm sales are through the roof, and stores cannot keep ammunition in stock. We are preparing for the day when we just might have to clean house. We've done it before and we can easily do it again.
I'll save health care for another time, when I can give you the inside story.

Alexandr

Try to buy some ammo at Wal-Mart! You'll see what Alexander is talking about! crazy

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Vatican paper calls Nobel Prize for Obama 'premature,' highlights his abortion stance

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=17363

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