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Originally Posted by Deacon Borislav
I fail to see how continuing to put Catholic Bishops in Orthodox areas i.e. Ukraine and Antioch will help to bring us together. I fail to see how proselytizing and attempting to convert Orthodox Believers to Eastern Rite Catholicism will bring us together.

In fact this will only continue to push us further apart.

Shlomo Deacon Borislav,

First, on the Ukraine I will deal with that at another time. As to Antioch, it is not nor has it ever been an Eastern Orthodox area. It is a Syriac area, and the Churches there to a great extent represent that. The Byzantine Church in Antioch is considered by most other Christian faithful a "foreign" body foisted upon them by the State. At that time it was the the Byzantine State. Why do you think Islam was successful in gaining control of the Middle East. The Christians of the area felt it was better to live under Islam and at least keep their faith than be presecuted as the Byzantine had done to the Christians of the area.

As for proselytizing, that does not accure now nor is it acceptable to the Catholic Church. But I would ask why do Eastern Orthodox presecute Eastern Catholics that wish to practice their faith? A prefect example are Eastern Catholic Russians who on their own or that of an ancestor converted to Catholicism. Do they not also have the right to belong to the Church that they choose?

Lastly, if Eastern Orthodox people are going to use the "Canonical Territory" card I would ask them to kindly pact up their bags and leave Western Europe, North and South America and Australia and New Zealand. You can't have it both ways. Either, people have the right to practice the religion of their choice where ever they are, or your Churches have to remove themselves from Catholic areas since we are not "allowed" to be in Eastern Orthodox areas. Which will it be?

As to the Ukraine, the Western part of it has for centuries been Eastern Catholic, and as the faithful as full citizens of the State have moved, they have asked that a proper Church organization been put in place to serve their needs. Now my question to you is, if this is OK to have Eastern Orthodox hierarchs, clergy and faithful be organized in France, why is this not permissible in the Ukraine.

Fush BaShlomo,
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Shlomo Lkhoolkhoon,

Please follow this link to discuss the issues Deacon Borislav and others have brought up here.

Fush BaShlomo Lkhoolkhoon,
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"As to the Ukraine, the Western part of it has for centuries been Eastern Catholic, and as the faithful as full citizens of the State have moved, they have asked that a proper Church organization been put in place to serve their needs. Now my question to you is, if this is OK to have Eastern Orthodox hierarchs, clergy and faithful be organized in France, why is this not permissible in the Ukraine."

If the Vatican believes that we are a sister Church and that there is Grace in our mysteries the small minority of Catholics in Ukraine should be directed to come under Orthodox Bishops by His Holiness the Pope of Rome.


Last edited by Deacon Borislav; 10/12/09 10:13 PM.
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No!

You cannot direct people to violate their consciences and leave the Catholic Church. This is the truth no matter whether we are talking about a small minority or a large one.

Following this kind of argument, His All-Holiness the Ecumenical Patriarch should direct the Deacon Borislav to submit to the canonical Catholic Bishop of wherever it is he lives in the United States.

Don't you see how ridiculous the argument is?

And don't you see how offensive it is for you, a Deacon, to give orders to the Pope, just as it would be offensive for me, a mere layman, to give orders to the Ecumenical Patriarch?

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Originally Posted by Latin Catholic
No!

You cannot direct people to violate their conscience and leave the Catholic Church.

Why would it be a violation of conscience?

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Why are there Bishops of the Orthodox church and Missions in canonical Catholic Jurisdictions?
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Originally Posted by Embatl'dSeraphim
Originally Posted by Latin Catholic
No!

You cannot direct people to violate their conscience and leave the Catholic Church.

Why would it be a violation of conscience?
Because it is a matter of conscience whether to belong to the Orthodox Church, the Catholic Church, or some other religion. I notice you're an Orthodox Christian. Now, if the Ecumenical Patriarch, Metropolitan Jonah or someone else were to "direct" you to join the Byzantine Catholic Church, surely you would consider that a violation of your conscience?

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"And don't you see how offensive it is for you, a Deacon, to give orders to the Pope, just as it would be offensive for me, a mere layman, to give orders to the Ecumenical Patriarch?"

Who said anything about me a Deacon giving orders to the Pope.

I am simply stating my opinion.

I believe such an action would be the first step to Christian Unity we are all seeking on this forum.

Why is it so offensive?


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Originally Posted by Deacon Borislav
"And don't you see how offensive it is for you, a Deacon, to give orders to the Pope, just as it would be offensive for me, a mere layman, to give orders to the Ecumenical Patriarch?"

Who said anything about me a Deacon giving orders to the Pope.

I am simply stating my opinion.
Well you did say what you thought should be done by the Pope!

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Yes, it is my opinion that the Pope should do this.

What is wrong with having an opinion?

People on this forum have opinions on what the Patriarch of Moscow does or should be doing and you don't seem to mind.

Please understand that I do not mean this as an attack on the Pope. I rather like and respect His Holiness. I support him in the Crusade against moral relativism, abortion, and think he is doing a wonderful job as a Roman Pontiff.



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Originally Posted by Deacon Borislav
"And don't you see how offensive it is for you, a Deacon, to give orders to the Pope, just as it would be offensive for me, a mere layman, to give orders to the Ecumenical Patriarch?"

Who said anything about me a Deacon giving orders to the Pope.

I am simply stating my opinion.

I believe such an action would be the first step to Christian Unity we are all seeking on this forum.

Why is it so offensive?
But no one has given orders to anyone. The whole discussion has been framed for the day when the issues are resolved and full unity is restored, a discussion of possibilities to return to a single patriarch of Antioch. How could you have missed this?

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This thread is moving away from the original post's intent. Please stay on track or begin another thread.

Let's also step back from the brink of uncharity. This thread is beginning to sound like the same old polemics that have divided us in the past and contineu to do so. Let's remember that we can disagree agreeably.


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Originally Posted by Deacon Borislav
"And don't you see how offensive it is for you, a Deacon, to give orders to the Pope, just as it would be offensive for me, a mere layman, to give orders to the Ecumenical Patriarch?"

Who said anything about me a Deacon giving orders to the Pope.

I am simply stating my opinion.

I believe such an action would be the first step to Christian Unity we are all seeking on this forum.

Why is it so offensive?
I don't agree that it would be the first step to Christian Unity. I believe it would be one more violation of the rights and consciences of Eastern Catholics. That's no way to achieve Christian Unity.

Anyway, why does everyone have to pick on Eastern Catholics all the time? Don't they have the right to exist and to worship in accordance with their own tradition, which includes being in communion with Rome?

Of course, once the Orthodox and Catholic Churches have returned to full communion, there will be no need for Eastern Catholic Churches separate from the Eastern Orthodox Churches, because they will all simply be Eastern Churches.

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Originally Posted by Deacon Borislav
"As to the Ukraine, the Western part of it has for centuries been Eastern Catholic, and as the faithful as full citizens of the State have moved, they have asked that a proper Church organization been put in place to serve their needs. Now my question to you is, if this is OK to have Eastern Orthodox hierarchs, clergy and faithful be organized in France, why is this not permissible in the Ukraine."

If the Vatican believes that we are a sister Church and that there is Grace in our mysteries the small minority of Catholics in Ukraine should be directed to come under Orthodox Bishops by His Holiness the Pope of Rome.
If Orthodoxy would allow such dual communion with Rome and the other Orthodox patriarchtes I would have no issues with with this, provided that it be accomplished pastorally (i.e., if there are two bishops for a diocese (one Orthodox and one Greek Catholic) then do the merge when one see is vacant, allowing the remaining bishop to serve and then when he retires or dies allow the united clergy to elect a new bishop, or have both bishops step down and have the united clergy elect a new bishop).

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Forgive me, we in the Orthodox community believe that there already is a single Patriarch of Antioch. This has been stated by several members of this forum in previous posts.

I realize that my stance is rather unpopular here, but I hope we can be charitable enough to listen to all points of view. Even ones that we disagree with.


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