It recently came to my attention that certain insurance companies will not insure houses where there are dobermans, German shepherds and other breeds that they deem 'vicious'.
My question is, if a clergyman owned a doberman would that create a problem for his potential parish?
Are there any priests here that own shepherds or dobys?
I am looking into buying a doberman pup and I am just wondering.
Not a priest. Not a lawyer either. But this is one the lawyers would love to litigate. There's a principle here: "the more the merrier." If one party can be drawn into a lawsuit, why not cast the net and drag everyone who might be remotely linked into it. So it's not a stretch to say a parish could be drawn into a lawsuit if a "vicious" dog was in a parish-owned house. Also the principle of "deep pockets." If the priest has very little, drag the parish into it, too, so the take is big enough to justify contingency fees.
It recently came to my attention that certain insurance companies will not insure houses where there are dobermans, German shepherds and other breeds that they deem 'vicious'.
My question is, if a clergyman owned a doberman would that create a problem for his potential parish?
Are there any priests here that own shepherds or dobys?
I am looking into buying a doberman pup and I am just wondering.
Dear Father Deacon:
I am not a priest but that being said I would like to say that dogs such as Rottweilers, Dobermans, Pit Bulls, Bull Dogs, etc. get a lot of bad press. It seems that only time these dogs do get any press is when there is a problem and it usually is the fault of the owners who are too stupid to take the time to train their dogs properly and set boundaries for their dogs. They are generally not capable of being pack leaders which is bad news with dogs such as these.
A well socialized Doby is not going to be a problem. I have worked with many breeds of dogs and I have never been bitten by any of the animals mentioned above. It is always the little fur balls that seem to get me. The thing that really distresses me is the way so many people in this country treat their dogs as though they are four legged furry humans and extensions of themselves. One has to interact with a dog as a dog as much as possible or one is going to end up with a animal that is not balanced.
So as far as I am concerned get your Doberman and do not worry. If you would, please consider adopting one rather than going out and purchasing one. There are so many that need homes and you will save a dog from being euthanised . I don't know what part of the country you are in but I am certain that if you do a Google search for Doberman rescue groups in your area you will find one.
As far as the insurance goes, shop around. There are insurance companies that are dog friendly. You might have to pay a slightly higher premium but at least you can get it. Also, check with your town if you are allowed to own one. It is unfortunate but there are some places where ignorant people are enacting breed specific bans. Sorry to be preachy but dogs are my passion.
Thank you for the info Einar. I will take everything you said into consideration. I do want to get a puppy from a champion line so that I can be sure about the health and temperament... I was thinking about going to a reputable dealer.
the dog doesn't have to actually bite to make an actionable case. Knock over an injure a toddler without malice, and the parents can still make a decent suit, at least for treatment costs and punitive damages for improper restraint. Step on or otherwise bruise a child, and the parents can make enough hassle to get insurance to settle, as well. The property owner is responsible in some places as well as the animal's owner for allowing the animal.
My neighbor's dog was put down because it charged me and my then 3 year old, snarling, and it leapt at us; I kicked it in the chest (and I think broke it's rib); the animal was deemed vicious by animal control and destroyed. (This was it's second aggressive action towards humans, and the animal was not contained by the owner's fence, nor leashed.)
Big dogs, any breed, are more likely to incur liability over accidental injuries caused by a friendly dog, and when they are unfriendly, capable of more damage than smaller dogs.
German shepherds that come from good stock and are provided exercise and trained owners will be as kind as a lab.
My neighbor's pit bull lunges toward me ever time he's outside, but he's not a "dangerous animal" so nothing happens. Fortunately for the recent few lungings she was leashed, but I've ran back in the house spooked because she was loose. I always peek around the corner and am at times a little weary of staying in my front lawn with Thomas on the loose helping me garden because sometimes my neighbor opens garage door and lets his dog out without looking.
Almost every injury I've had from a dog has been due to labs. Never intentional. One, just being friendly, dislocated a toe by accident... I was in thongs. Half a dozen scratches. Not a mean bone in any of those labs... just clumsy, friendly dogs.
Big dogs tend to cause harm by accident, not malice.
A toddler I know took a tail to the face; it raised a welt. The bruise was spectacular. THe parents were reasonable, and realized no permanent harm was done by the pastor's dog. (They, being sensible folk, chided their three year old to stop following the dog!)
My lab was aggressive to 'outsiders', but we had to keep her chained or she would escape. The biggest worry I'd have about a big dog is sufficient exercise. German shepherds and labs are work dogs, if they don't work they can get a little crazy or becomes over-focused on potential threats to the pack.
Right now my dogs are about 20-25 lbs each, a poodle/mix and a dappled dachshund. The back yard lets them run it out and their behavior has improved dramatically since they were at an apartment.
I am not a priest but that being said I would like to say that dogs such as Rottweilers, Dobermans, Pit Bulls, Bull Dogs, etc. get a lot of bad press. It seems that only time these dogs do get any press is when there is a problem and it usually is the fault of the owners who are too stupid to take the time to train their dogs properly and set boundaries for their dogs. They are generally not capable of being pack leaders which is bad news with dogs such as these.
A well socialized Doby is not going to be a problem. I have worked with many breeds of dogs and I have never been bitten by any of the animals mentioned above. It is always the little fur balls that seem to get me. The thing that really distresses me is the way so many people in this country treat their dogs as though they are four legged furry humans and extensions of themselves. One has to interact with a dog as a dog as much as possible or one is going to end up with a animal that is not balanced.
So as far as I am concerned get your Doberman and do not worry.
With every respect, I wish to disagree with this in fairly strong terms.
As a former Anglican vicar, I had people coming to my house all the time: from people looking for hand-outs, to legitimate visits from parishioners. This was in a rural town in Northern Canada, where people were generally quite used to dogs, and a host of other animals.
Now, I had a collie - a dog not exactly famed for being a problem, and it really put some of my parishioners off (particularly the elderly).
I can only imagine what it would have been like if I had a doberman.
I simply can't imagine that it's very pastorally considerate to have a dog that has an image/reputation like that, if parishioners are to feel like their priest is accessible.
Having said that, not knowing the context in which Deacon Borislav is ministering, I obviously can't say that this would necessarily apply to his situation.
One final thought, though: It may well be that dogs reflect their owners, but one would be hard-pressed to name an instance where a Jack Russell needed to be put down for killing a 3-year-old. Unfortunately, here in the UK, there have been more than a few incidences in recent years wherein children (and others) have been badly mauled and even killed by American Staffordshire Pit Bull Terriers and Rottweilers.
Partly this is because they are 'Broken Britain's' dog of choice; but one can hardly argue that these dogs are not being chosen by such people for a reason....
My next door neighbor had a female Doberman. She was never a problem, and thank God because I raised my children from infanthood all the while she was alive.
On the other hand, my grandfather had bought one for the family when my mother was a teen. One day the dog snapped and attacked my mother in the kitchen out of nowhere grabbing her lip. Fortunately for her, he own grandmother was present and had the presence of mind to quickly take a chair to subdue the dog and get it off my mother's face. My mother was spared any harm, but only because of circumstance. The dog was given away, and was put to sleep by its next owner because of agressive behaviour.
I discussed this with someone once. He said that sometimes the brain of a doberman grows too large for its head and that is why they have a reputation for 'snapping'.
Personally, I would not take the chance of owning one, even if I was attracted to the breed (which I am not).
My next door neighbor had a female Doberman. She was never a problem, and thank God because I raised my children from infanthood all the while she was alive.
On the other hand, my grandfather had bought one for the family when my mother was a teen. One day the dog snapped and attacked my mother in the kitchen out of nowhere grabbing her lip. Fortunately for her, he own grandmother was present and had the presence of mind to quickly take a chair to subdue the dog and get it off my mother's face. My mother was spared any harm, but only because of circumstance. The dog was given away, and was put to sleep by its next owner because of agressive behaviour.
I discussed this with someone once. He said that sometimes the brain of a doberman grows too large for its head and that is why they have a reputation for 'snapping'.
Personally, I would not take the chance of owning one, even if I was attracted to the breed (which I am not).
Let me come clean and tell you why exactly I want a doberman.
First of all I have always wanted a dog. I love all animals, but dogs especially. I want to have a loyal companion. A friend we can share good times with. A buddy to go on walks with me and my kid...
Why the Doberman?
From what I understand, the Doberman can be both a great family dog, but also able to defend the family in time of need. As an Orthodox Cleric I am not allowed to own guns, but in this day and age I feel that I need a protector around the house to watch over my family. My priests house was broken into a few months ago while he and his wife slept. What is inserting is that the thief also robbed 3 or 4 other houses on the street the same night, but avoided the house that had a German Shepherd.
Finally the Doberman looks really cool! I know that may sound a bit shallow, but YES I love the sleek and muscular look of the dog. The Mercedes of dogs so to speak...
So protection, looks and the fact that it is a good family dog...
As a former Anglican vicar, I had people coming to my house all the time: from people looking for hand-outs, to legitimate visits from parishioners. This was in a rural town in Northern Canada, where people were generally quite used to dogs, and a host of other animals.
Now, I had a collie - a dog not exactly famed for being a problem, and it really put some of my parishioners off (particularly the elderly).
Well this is hardly the dogs fault. Do we all roll over just beacause some people have issues with dogs?
I can only imagine what it would have been like if I had a doberman.
I do not wish to appear insensitive but it is people who are fearful that tend to be the ones that push for breed specific legislation here in the states. When you look at the total number of dogs that are involved in various incidents it is a small number, the media sees Pit Bull and immediately reports the attack, not so much with other breeds though because it isn't sensational enough
I simply can't imagine that it's very pastorally considerate to have a dog that has an image/reputation like that, if parishioners are to feel like their priest is accessible.
Now I will agree with you here. I understand what you are saying but again you are talking about a reputation that in most cases is not deserved. I don't know, perhaps I am so attuned with these animals that I just don't get it. Perhaps the dog can be kept away from the office area? For me having the dog around would be very calming
Having said that, not knowing the context in which Deacon Borislav is ministering, I obviously can't say that this would necessarily apply to his situation.
One final thought, though: It may well be that dogs reflect their owners, but one would be hard-pressed to name an instance where a Jack Russell needed to be put down for killing a 3-year-old. Unfortunately, here in the UK, there have been more than a few incidences in recent years wherein children (and others) have been badly mauled and even killed by American Staffordshire Pit Bull Terriers and Rottweilers.
In closing I would like to say that dogs such as Pits and Rottys get a lot of bad press. If you will take the time and search the web you will find just as many stories where these dogs are heros. Again, the problem is stupid people not training their dogs properly, not exercising their dogs,and being ignorant of their breed of choice. I will say that not all people should own these breeds, one should be very knowledgeable in dog handling. Also, I would like to mention that I have been attacked by an irate Beagle hound which will seem rather odd to many people as they are such a social dog. I look at it this way, if it has sharp pointy teeth it can hurt you.
Partly this is because they are 'Broken Britain's' dog of choice; but one can hardly argue that these dogs are not being chosen by such people for a reason....
This rather annoys me ! Are you saying that all people who own Pit Bulls and Rottweilers and other breeds that the media sees as dangerous are bad? I own a Rottweiler Boxer mix<More Rotty than Boxer>and she is as sweet as can be, loves children. The other is a German Shepherd Great Dane mix and I trained him to be my wifes service dog, not a mean bone in him anywhere.
Here are some links that will shed a positive light on both Pit Bulls and Rottys and an article where a Jack Russell Terrier attacked and killed an infant.
I discussed this with someone once. He said that sometimes the brain of a doberman grows too large for its head and that is why they have a reputation for 'snapping'.
This is a myth that has been bandied about for years. It is not true. There are times when dogs will flip out because they have a brain tumour which causes pressure on the brain but this can happen with any breed.
Don't worry about your post becoming political. First of all, from your description, I quite understand why you would want a doberman. For what it's worth, my dad always wanted one, but the rest of his family (including me, probably) just used to 'make fun' of him for it. But now I understand him and his reasons much better, so I repent of having anything against dobermans!
As for ConvertedViking, thank you for your response. I don't want either you or DB to think I was suggesting you might be pastorally insensitive for thinking it was alright for a cleric to have a doberman (or other such breed). I still can not help but wonder, though, why, when dogs like Pit Bulls were bred to fight, they still have appeal today. I know that is a subjective position; it's just one I can not shake. Having said that, I can't discount the sincere appreciation some people have for their breed - especially when that breed takes good care of them.
Finally the Doberman looks really cool! I know that may sound a bit shallow, but YES I love the sleek and muscular look of the dog. The Mercedes of dogs so to speak...
Ah yes I can see it now. Father Deacon in his black riasa and aviator shades with a big black Doby at his side. Very cool.
So protection, looks and the fact that it is a good family dog...
Finally the Doberman looks really cool! I know that may sound a bit shallow, but YES I love the sleek and muscular look of the dog. The Mercedes of dogs so to speak...
Ah yes I can see it now. Father Deacon in his black riasa and aviator shades with a big black Doby at his side. Very cool.
So protection, looks and the fact that it is a good family dog...
As for ConvertedViking, thank you for your response. I don't want either you or DB to think I was suggesting you might be pastorally insensitive for thinking it was alright for a cleric to have a doberman (or other such breed). I still can not help but wonder, though, why, when dogs like Pit Bulls were bred to fight, they still have appeal today. I know that is a subjective position; it's just one I can not shake. Having said that, I can't discount the sincere appreciation some people have for their breed - especially when that breed takes good care of them.
No problems here. The appeal to these breeds is that they are extremely loyal and will die protecting their owners and family's before letting any harm come to them. As for the Pit Bull, it is their fighting spirit that gives them the good qualities that they have. They must be managed correctly though and this is where one must have the knowledge of the breed and the dog handling skills. A bit of history here, the Rottweiler once upon a time was known as the Butchers Dog and was used to pull a cart full of meat from slaughtered animals. Legend has it on the return trip the purse of money from the transaction was placed around the dogs neck, no one in his right mind would try to rob the owner.
In Christ: Einar
Last edited by Converted Viking; 11/19/0903:39 PM.
Sorry folks if this thread becomes political. I am just trying to get some friendly advice about a dog I really really want to get.
Some fun videos for you folks.
Enjoy!
Sorry. I guess it is obvious by now that I am nuts about dogs, especially the big scary ones.
Seriously, I just get bent out of shape when certain breeds are singled out as being nasty mean killers by the media. I try to be an advocate for these breeds.
Sorry folks if this thread becomes political. I am just trying to get some friendly advice about a dog I really really want to get.
Some fun videos for you folks.
Enjoy!
Sorry. I guess it is obvious by now that I am nuts about dogs, especially the big scary ones.
Seriously, I just get bent out of shape when certain breeds are singled out as being nasty mean killers by the media. I try to be an advocate for these breeds.
In Christ: Einar
No problem here. I actually agree with every word you are saying.
As much as I ADORE dogs (though admittedly not all breeds), I see that some are getting very defensive here about them so let's remember something a priest said on an Orthodox forum I look at: animals are animals and God has given man dominion over the animals, so we should avoid 'sentimentality' when relating to them because that can be sinful.
Dobermans have a been of an image problem due to their frequent use as attack dogs. The breed is a harrier, bred to be able to bring to bay larger animals and to run fast.
The combination of being notably faster than humans, bred for the hunt, and used in attack and guard duties due to their breed being suitable for hunting...
This leads to the common misperception of the breed as mean; they are very much not.
It also didn't help that they were used as the "badguys" in the Benji movies... and have been shownon several TV series as aggressive, if usually well disciplined, guard animals. (Magnum PI is the most memorable.) But as with all medium-large and large dogs, their size alone presents a potential hazard to children.
This isn't getting political. It's just an exchange of ideas and opinions. Opinions, you know, are like sweat socks: eveyone's got two and most of them smell. Political? I define that as someone who has a public office and who lies to people. You don't fit that one.
Now this is the type of thing that just makes me absolutely furious ! Why was this dog loose? The owner should be bought to book. From the description of the fellow, he sounds sort of thugish. Drinking a can of beer in an underpass? He doesn't sound like a nice fellow to me.
In a very real way this was an attack on the lady. We had an incident here in Durham or Chapel Hill I can't remember which, where a drunk driver ran over a seeing eye dog and injured the person.
Converted Viking
Last edited by Converted Viking; 11/19/0907:24 PM.
As much as I ADORE dogs (though admittedly not all breeds), I see that some are getting very defensive here about them so let's remember something a priest said on an Orthodox forum I look at: animals are animals and God has given man dominion over the animals, so we should avoid over 'sentimentality' when relating to them because that can be sinful.
Hi Alice:
I guess I am a big sinner then. I do care a great deal about my dogs and they are my buddies. It is true that God did give us these animals and we have been given dominion over them but I do believe that we are to be kind to them and not mistreat them. To so is a sin against Gods creation in my opinion. Dogs are amazing animals and I am still amazed at all of the good they can do for us. To this day I will not forget a young girl I saw working with her seeing eye dog, it was truly amazing.
As much as I ADORE dogs (though admittedly not all breeds), I see that some are getting very defensive here about them so let's remember something a priest said on an Orthodox forum I look at: animals are animals and God has given man dominion over the animals, so we should avoid 'sentimentality' when relating to them because that can be sinful.
Hello Alice:
Actually "the some" is me. I apologize to everyone if I have caused any offense.
As much as I ADORE dogs (though admittedly not all breeds), I see that some are getting very defensive here about them so let's remember something a priest said on an Orthodox forum I look at: animals are animals and God has given man dominion over the animals, so we should avoid 'sentimentality' when relating to them because that can be sinful.
Hi Alice:
I guess I am a big sinner then. I do care a great deal about my dogs and they are my buddies. It is true that God did give us these animals and we have been given dominion over them but I do believe that we are to be kind to them and not mistreat them. To so is a sin against Gods creation in my opinion. Dogs are amazing animals and I am still amazed at all of the good they can do for us. To this day I will not forget a young girl I saw working with her seeing eye dog, it was truly amazing.
In Christ: Einar
I agree with you brother. I think love towards animals is an expression of God's love for all of His creation. In fact Orthodoxy teaches that the whole world, including the animal kingdom can be redeemed in and through our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. These creatures are given to us by God to care for, love and express our appreciation for the magnificence and complexity of divine creation. It is in no way sinful. All of us can only hope to have your devotion and care for these little ones.
Also the devotion, care, protection and unconditional love these creatures show us is something from which we as humans need to learn ourselves. Most of us don't show that kind of humble, unconditional and selfless love even towards our husbands and wives.
Maybe God is trying to teach us something through these animals...
I think love towards animals is an expression of God's love for all of His creation. In fact Orthodoxy teaches that the whole world, including the animal kingdom can be redeemed in and through our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. These creatures are given to us by God to care for, love and express our appreciation for the magnificence and complexity of divine creation. It is in no way sinful. All of us can only hope to have your devotion and care for these little ones.
Also the devotion, care, protection and unconditional love these creatures show us is something from which we as humans need to learn ourselves. Most of us don't show that kind of humble, unconditional and selfless love even towards our husbands and wives.
I agree!
Quote
I guess I am a big sinner then. I do care a great deal about my dogs and they are my buddies. It is true that God did give us these animals and we have been given dominion over them but I do believe that we are to be kind to them and not mistreat them. To so is a sin against Gods creation in my opinion. Dogs are amazing animals and I am still amazed at all of the good they can do for us. To this day I will not forget a young girl I saw working with her seeing eye dog, it was truly amazing.
I think that you are misconstruing the point the priest was making! Infact, I think you are misconstruing why I posted it as well!! If you recall, I said "I ADORE dogs". No one was talking about hurting dogs, nor were any of the posts talking about hurting dogs, nor anything I said was about hurting dogs, so I have absolutely NO idea how this twist came in to the thread!!!!
The priest was remarking, in response to someone who thought that neutering dogs was cruel, that we need to be careful of OVER 'sentimentality' towards animals...I don't see how in any way he was condoning cruelty to animals, unless ofcourse you agree with the person who thought that neutering them was cruel.
His point, I believe was also so that we do not fall into the trap of 'killing animals to eat' is evil, that 'wearing leather is evil', and in general, caring more about animals than humans, etc., mentality. I think that what he meant is that we need to keep their service and position in God's creation in focus.
Now getting back to the dogs,
Quote
I do care a great deal about my dogs and they are my buddies. It is true that God did give us these animals and we have been given dominion over them but I do believe that we are to be kind to them and not mistreat them.
I am offended that anyone thinks that I condone mistreatment to them. Where in the world did THAT come from?!?
I love dogs and have always had dogs. They indeed can be angels sent by God to help us in many ways, including their companionship, their devotion and unconditional love, but sometimes, unfortunately, they can also be the opposite. Many people have been killed or injured by wild and domesticated dogs. Putting them, or any other animal above humans is what the good priest was implying is sinful.
We tend to paint with a broad brush, but the truth is that any dog can have a pleasant personality and any dog can be a problem. There are plenty of examples of large breeds with members who have the kind of personality that adapts to and warms up to anyone who comes along. Some of these are just pussy cats and I've known owners to say that they might wag theri tails at thieves carrying out the goods of the house. So there shouldn't be any hard and fast condemnation of large breeds.
My sone just adopted a dog that had been rescued as a stray. She's a big dog and has symptoms of being abused. She doesn't jump up on people, stays off the furniture, doesn't beg at the table, and almost seems a bit shy. She doesn't bark. Now, they've only had her about thee weeks and she doesn't seem to think the house is her place yet, but they've worked hard to make sure that she stays as docile as she is. I'm not a fan of dogs in the house, though I've had relatives who've had them and I've lived with them. So if you're willing to work with the dog, I'm sure it will be a good thing.
In other dog news, the University of Georgia is in mourning, following the death of Uga VII, the English bulldog mascot for the University football team.
Uga VII died Thursday of heart-related causes, the dog's owner said. The 4-year-old dog made his debut as the mascot in August 2008 after his father, Uga VI, died of congestive heart failure. He had big paws to fill — Uga VI was the school's winningest mascot, racking up a 87-27 record, seven wins in nine bowl appearances and a pair of Southeastern Conference championships.
"Uga VII was not as active or mischievous as his father but more distinguished. He realized his role when he put his shirt on. He was well-behaved and always appreciated the significance of his role." "He had been truly embraced by all those who follow the Georgia Bulldogs across the country. We will miss him dearly."
My remarks about mistreating dogs was not aimed at you but was meant in general terms. My apologies for not writing more clearly.
Yes, I did misconstrue your remarks. I thought you were trying to tell us/me not to be sentimental about our dogs because it was sinful. Once again I apologize for my misunderstanding. I do agree with you that putting them above humans is sinful.
There are plenty of examples of large breeds with members who have the kind of personality that adapts to and warms up to anyone who comes along. Some of these are just pussy cats and I've known owners to say that they might wag theri tails at thieves carrying out the goods of the house.
We tried takign in a sheltie-pomeranian mix that had been too much for an elderly couple many years ago. It didn't work out; he desparately needed a six year old.
Anyway, while I didn't want him to be aggressive, I did think it a bit much when I observed him rush up to the meter man and lick him . . .
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