www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Why did Rome attempt to excommunicate the Eastern Patriarch Cerul

I agree wholeheartedly with my brother.

Many years,

Neil

[quote=MarkosC]militantsparrow,

I hate to sound like I'm objecting to a line of inquiry, but I personally think that this issue, in itself, isn't going to help you understand the difference between the two communions.

Basically, the events of 1054 took place in the context of many historical events, and in my opinion reading the modern "Orthodox/Catholic" division back into them is about as accurate as using 21st century concepts of democracy as a lens to judge ancient Athens rather than looking at Athen's own ideologies and context. There will be similarities, but you'd be just asking to get inaccurate results.

Key problems include the fact that the Emperor was not condemned and in fact (I believe based on memory - I don't have access to my books right now) was praised by Humbertus and/or subsequent Popes; political balances and choices among figures in the Roman, Norman, and the Church of Old Rome; as well as the Roman Empire's concept of Roman-ness at the time and its ecclesiastical manifestation. Despite the fact that these issues (at a minimum) are critical to understanding 1054, they are completely irrelevant today.

Some sources I've thought have been enlightening on this particular matter include:

- Father John Meyendorrf's "Imperial Unity and Christian Divisions" and "The Byzantine Legacy of the Orthodox Church"

- Dr Aristeides Papadakis' "Christian East and the Rise of the Papacy".

- Jonathan Harris' "Byzantium and the Crusades"

- M.B. Efthimiou's Greeks and Latins on Cyprus

Anyway, this is a start. These are all academic works which claim to derive heavily from the primary sources, and which ideally would not be (and I don't believe are) confessional apologies. Again, I'm not at all convinced that really understanding this issue will be of any help to understand the division, much less choosing which side to go on, or (most importantly) what parish you will attend.

Markos[/quote]

Thank you, Markos. You're probably right. But how then does anyone ever know which church is the true church?

I thought the big difference was papal authority so I examined that in some detail, but even that is not entirely clear. There is a definite notion of papal primacy in the early church, but not a lot of talk of outright supremacy. But then again, the whole concept of jurisdiction and authority seems to have evolved (grown) over the years. From the Triumvirate, to the Pentarchy, to what the Catholic's would say the Supremacy of Rome. I see more supremacy language after the 5th century.

I just wish it was easier. I don't know why I've been plagued recently with a desire to know the truth of the early church, but I can't shake it.

Oh, do I sympathize, militantsparrow.

There is one thing I should have added to what I said before: researching this question just for its own sake is most interesting, and enlightening in several ways.

That being said....

First, I hate to say this, but I wouldn't make the decision based on reading of any history - even though I'm an avid reader of good (generally academic) history and it's very useful. An intellectually serious look at history frequently results that - even in cases of clear-cut right and wrong - problems that are presented as black and white in confessional polemics are frequently multivariate, with many issues that are no longer relevant. This goes for relations between Old Rome and the Emperor in Constantinople in "Late Antiquity", between Old Rome and the Roman Empire in the period leading up to 1054, as well as during the crusades (1090-1350, in my book).

An important takeaway of the worship proscribed by the "Byzantine" Typikon is that "God is the Lord and has appeared unto us". We are here to worship God, and our worship brings forth the things about God that would fill the world if they were written in books. It's not derived from historical research, philosophical reasoning, or confessions of faith - even if these things have their own important roles. In the end, the Church is the Eucharist.

So, unfortunately, even though this route is important, and even though I'm not in any way qualified to give spiritual advice, the route I took was by worship - understanding the church I'm in, and by visiting other churches (several times!) and seeing what I might lack and if things are really more full elsewhere. In my case, I didn't in the end think so, so I stayed where I was.

And, if you want me to recommend a few more books, feel free to PM me.

Markos

Markos,
It has been very enlightening and intellectually stimulating to do the reading I've done and to engage in the conversations I have had with Eastern Orthodox and Catholics alike. But you and a couple other people have made a similar recommendation. That is, that I stop trying to find the intellectual proof and instead focus on the Truth. I think this is good advice.

I will continue reading and researching, but for now I am quite content (happy even) to be a member of the Catholic Church. I am in complete union with Rome and feel very spiritually fulfilled as a result. I do still love the Eastern approach to spirituality, but I can visit an Eastern rite Catholic church if I get the itch.

I will take you up on the PM.

Thank you again and God bless.

Markos,
It looks like I can't PM you for some reason. It is telling me Private Messages are disabled. Maybe its temporary or maybe its because I'm new. :)

Forum rules stipulate that new members' posts must be approved and also that they cannot private message for the first few weeks. I know that this is frustrating. I am sorry...

Perhaps you can email the Administrator and request that he send your email address to Marcos. That way you can message each other outside of the forum.

Alice, Moderator

militantsparrow,

Feel free to email me at gewehreinz(at symbol)consultant.com

Anticipating your question, a few books I'd recommend on the issue of papal primacy are:

Archmandrite Vasilios Gondikakis: "Hymn of Entry" (St. Vladimir's Press) - the only Orthodox "criticism", as it were, of "Papal Primacy" that I found in any way intellectually compelling. A VERY hard book to read, especially in one sitting, but loaded with rich content. That being said, the book is only his opinion: some of his fellow monks would disagree with it.

An aside: anything by the same author is excellent (and much easier to read) - some books are available from Alexander Press. He also wrote an excellent first chapter to a book which presents beautiful color prints of the icons of the monastery he was once abbot of: "THE CRETAN PAINTER THEOPHANIS" of the Holy Monastery of Stavronikita". It's avaible only from Greece, and therefore expensive. Orthodoxpress.org still has a few.


Hermann Pottmeyer, "Recent Discussions on Primacy in Relation to Vatican II" in Cardinal Walter Kasper, ed. The Petrine Ministry: Catholics and Orthodox in Dialogue (Paulist Press, New York, 2006), translated by the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity.

Hermann Pottmeyer, Towards a Papacy in Communion: Perspectives from Vatican I and II (Herder and Herder, New York, 1998). A shorter, unfootnoted, and somewhat broader version of the above.


I'll add this caveat: I am not an expert, nor do I have any theological qualifications. These are just a random person's suggestions.

Markos

Shlomo Militantsparrow,

Welcome to the Forum. A FYI for you, not all Eastern Catholics belong to the Byzantine Tradition. Many of us belong to the Antiochene-Edessan Holy Tradition (Myself), Alexandrian and the Armenian. I hope you enjoy the people and topics for you will get an education.

Fush BaShlomo,
Yuhannon

Thank you for the suggestions Marko. I will try to find them at my library.

[quote=Yuhannon][quote=militantsparrow]Could anyone give me the Eastern Catholic and / or Eastern Orthodox perspective on why Rome tried to excommunicate the Eastern Patriarch Cerularius?

I'm on a mission to discover Christ's Church. But the more I research the less confident I am that I'm in that Church. But nothing is very cut and dry in the history of Christianity. Leading up to the schism, leadership on both sides seemed filled with pride and a desire for power. Both seemed a far cry from the likes of St. Peter and St. John. [/quote]

Shlomo Militantsparrow,

Welcome to the Forum. A FYI for you, not all Eastern Catholics belong to the Byzantine Tradition. Many of us belong to the Antiochene-Edessan Holy Tradition (Myself), Alexandrian and the Armenian. I hope you enjoy the people and topics for you will get an education.

Fush BaShlomo,
Yuhannon [/quote]

Yuhannon,
Thank you fro that clarification and the kind words.

Shlomo Militantsparrow,

You state:
I would say that uncertantity is a sign you are on the right path, you now just need to see where it does lead.

When I started to seek God's Church, I was baptised Catholic, but had never went to Church with my family. In seeking, I found out that not only was I Catholic, but a Maronite. Through further research, I found that (for me) that the Catholic Church had the fulness of God's Truth. Part of that is in the fact that all Apostolic Traditions are represented within Catholicism, and no other Apostolic Church Tradition (excepting the Oriental Orthodox) even comes close.

Where you may be now is which tradition best inspires you. For me, in this rush rush world the Maronite Tradition of my forebears is what I need. Since we are monastic in Tradition, we are simple but rich in the Divine Mystery.

And as I have stated, many here are more than happy to help you in any thing that you need. Either write publically or privately and we will with God's help be there for you.

Fush BaShlomo,
Yuhannon

Thank you, Yuhannon.