www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Orthodox antimension on Ebay

I don't know about the Orthodox Churches, but the Catholic Church, I believe, has forbidden the sale of holy relics (not that it doesn't go on all the time). Since antimensia contain relics, I wonder how the Orthodox feel about them being sold on eBay?

On the other hand, since it is a liturgical piece whose craftsmanship is, I suppose, not normally separated from the relic itself, I guess they can't just be given away, since someone put labor into making it, and he probably has to receive some sort of compensation in order to continue sewing the antimension.

Hmm...interesting!

Alexis

It's now 7 p.m. EST and the high bid is $150.00. I'd bid but I stopped my PayPal account over problems with them and my credit card. There seems to be some aggressive bidding on it.

BOB

It says it was issued to the Kellion of Saints Boris and Gleb in the year 2000 by an Archbishop John (Ioannis) of New York. Since this is all written in Greek I guess it is a Greek bishop?

Does this help to identify its origin? Catholic, Orthodox or vagante?

I know the seller, he is orthodox.

That is good because he will understand the holiness of antimensia and that they do not belong to the priests but they remain the property of the bishops who issue them. Perhaps you could ask him to consider returning the antimension.

It seems likely that this antimension was issued by
Archbishop John (LoBue) of New York of the Milan Synod.

http://www.milansynodusa.org/

Here is his e-mail
abpjohn @ holynameabbey.org

Alexis,

To answer your question, both the EO and EC deplore the selling of antimensia. As Father Ambrose has indicated, they are deemed to be the property of the bishop who issued them. Except in extraordinary circumstances, the Divine Liturgy should not be served without an antimension in place and it should be that provided to the temple or presbyter by the hierarch of the jurisdiction. In effect, it is the warrant by which a church or priest is granted authorization for the service of the Divine Liturgy.

Many years,

Neil

In Athens, there are several shops which sell unconsecrated antimensia. It is then up to the purchaser of such a blank to petition his bishop to consecrate the antimension, which involves inserting a small parcel of authenticated relics, and signing the consecrated antimension.

Forgive me, but I am not inclined to take a "consecration" from somebody of the "Synod of Milan" seriously.

Fr. Serge

It seems the Synod of Milan is not viewed unfavourably by some in Orthodoxy. Last year two of its hieromonks were received into the Russian Orthodox Church as priests and without ordination.

It would seem to be a grey area where instead of saying "extra ecclesiam nulla sacramenta" the Orthodox will murmer "fortassse, fortasse" and apply a large measure of economy.

Whatever happened to this antimension? Did the seller pull it or did someone buy it?

There is perhaps a bit of an interesting end to this story.

After the discussion here (and while the auction was still ongoing), I wrote a note to the seller, asking whether the antimens still contained its relics and, if so, the names of the saints whose relics were therein. There was no response.

By the end of that day, however, the auction was listed as “ended,” with a notation that the antimens had been sold to the highest bidder. (The buyer’s identity was not given.) Interestingly, the auction apparently ended two or three days earlier than originally scheduled.

Why the auction was terminated early is uncertain. However, eBay does have a policy of forbidding the sale of any human body parts, even small relics.

You wrote "However, eBay does have a policy of forbidding the sale of any human body parts, even small relics".
There are frequently first class relics on Ebay. Example: http://cgi.ebay.com/RARE-RELIC-RELI...tZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item1c0e86d015
Unfortunately the sale of Sacred Relics (body part fragements) does not seem to bother anyone at Ebay.

Perhaps there was an option to buy it at a fixed price and someone took the seller up on it.

BOB

Archbishop John (LoBue) of the Milan Synod in New York who consecrated this antimension contacted the seller who is a Roman Catholic priest and the latter kindly agreed to return it to Archbishop John. The relic in the antimension is that of Saint Laurence.

Thank God for that. I just don't understand what people would want to do with an antimension in the first place and still don't understand the mindset of people who think they need to sell sacred objects used in liturgical worship.

BOB

Not everthing that is listed as "sacred objects" on ebay are sacred objects. I recall a seller who had a reliquary which (supposedly) contained the "relics" of St. Nicholas. This seller was also providing the "original" certificate signed by a bishop in Rome. I inquired the name of the bishop and the date of the signature. When the seller responded with the name and date (and a picture of the certificate), I consulted David Cheney's website. The bishop had lived in Rome, but died 10 years before the date of the signature. Needless to say the "sacred object" was undoubtedly fake. Caveat emptor.

An antimension has two conceivable uses: the obvious one of an essential furnishing for the Holy Table without which one may not serve the Divine Liturgy except in cases of dire emergency,

and

as a "document" of potential historic importance. This applies to the art work, the date, and the name of the consecrating hierarch.

For the first use (in serving the Divine Liturgy) buying and selling an antimension is a pointless sacrilege; the priest would have acquired the antimension quite improperly and would have no legitimate right to serve on it.

For the second use (as an historical document), with the blessing of the bishop the relics may be carefully removed and given to the bishop (who presumably will use them in consecrating another antimension) and the Antimension, minus its relics, should be framed and displayed in a suitable ecclesiastical museum, preferably with a card or something similar, giving the historical information.

For further information see the definitive study by Father Archimandrite Januarius (Izzo).

One should not, of course, sell an antimension at all. I was disagreeably shocked to discover that a certain jurisdiction in the USA, when issuing an antimension, would also issue a bill! This does not preclude making an offering, but the only sort of antimension that can properly be sold is a "blank", which has never been consecrated but is purchased for the bishop to consecrate (one can purchase such "blank antimensia") from several ecclesiastical supply shops in Athens.

Fr. Serge

One Sunday morning in Walsingham, great horrors!! Fr David could not serve Liturgy because someone had swiped the Antimension. Fr David calls in the local Police who look bemused about all the fuss over what seems to them to be nothing but a very large handkerchief. But they keep a straight face and take down the particulars. Now the talk was around Walsingham that it was the man then known as the Patriarch of Glastonbury who had sent his knaves by night to steal our Antimension for his own personal use.... It never turned up, the Russian bishop in London had to send a replacement and we never discovered if it was the Patriarch of Glastonbury or not...

I have known Abba Seraphim for ten or a dozen years; he is quite unlikely to have anything to do with stealing anything, much less stealing an antimension.

Fr. Serge

It may not have been him. If memory serves there was a Patriarch of Glastonbury who had a butchery shop.

This incident would have been in 1980.

Btw, I think that Patriarch Seraphim inherited his Glastonbury position from his uncle Hugh George Newman who was known by the wonderful title: His Sacred Beatitude Mar Georgius I, Patriarch of Glastonbury, Prince-Catholicos of the West, Doctor Christianissimus, and Prelat Commandeur of the Order of the Crown of Thorns.

They were quite amazing characters in those days, eccentric to the bone. We need people like them today.

Fathers Serge and Ambrose:

What does one do with a very old, worn antimension? I had an Orthodox priest show me one once that had been in the parish he was serving. It was very old and worn thin, apparently from age and use. It was almost impossible to read the signature of the bishop who had issued it. Don't these get sent back to one's bishop when a new one is issued?

BOB

The Antimension had previously belong to Fr. Nicholas of the aforemention Kellion. He reposed. The Roman priest who was his 'friend' assumed control of his material possessions. He was the fellow trying to sell the Antimens. After we were alerted, we contacted him and told him of the sacrilege. He did not immediately accept the fact that he should return the Antimens. We then sent many e-mails informing him of e-bay policy, and such, and other flooded him with complaints and we basically harassed him until he agreed to return it.

He contacted Archbishop John and myself (Hierodeacon Augustine), and apologized and agreed to return the Antimension. It still hasn't arrived.

The fellow claims that Fr. Nicholas, on his deathbed, asked him to take care of his material possession until such time as they could be agreeably relocated. If such a conversation did take place on the deathbed of an elderly and dying priest, and I doubt it gave any implication to sell the Antimens! or even his priests' cross and Liturgy book (which he still has)!

The Antimens, though said to have been sent, has not arrived for sometime. I only pray and hope that the said person did send it.


Sincerely,

Hieromonk Augustine

Abba Seraphim is Metropolitan of Glastonbury, by consecration at the hands of Pope Shenhouda of Alexandria and the Holy Synod of the Coptic Orthodox Church; Abba Seraphim's diocese is a missionary outreach of the Coptic Orthodox Church.

For further information, see the British Orthodox web site.

Meanwhile, there is no particular shortage of eccentrics these days!

Fr. Serge

A tattered, worn Antimension may properly be returned to one's bishop, who will remove the relics and (if so requested) will replace the Antimension.

A priest's cross and/or service book may be given or bequeathed to a Roman priest.

Fr Serge

Father,

Yes, I understand. I was just relating the ambiguity of the situation, whereby the claimant said he acquired the material.

Yes, a priestly cross and service book, may be retained in his property. I just don't like it. Sorry for any confusion on these points.

Sincerely,

Fr. Augustine

Father,
Thank you for your active role in striving to safeguard this antimension. You share a story that is so sad and disturbing. The tragedy of the sacrilege is made all the worse by the damage to relations between our Churches by such an action.

When I hear such awful stories I always hope they are apocryphal. Clearly, sadly, this one is not. There are many stories of high altars being removed from RC Churches when "modernizing" a church and the altars being tossed out back, sent to land fill etc. Unthinkable actions.

Prayer for this confused priest. May the antimension yet find its way home.
Mary

Just so everyone knows, we got the antimension back today. So, the affair is over, and that it. Thanks to all who helped.

Word has come through that Archbishop John LoBue has now received the antimension.

Praise be to God!

I know altar tables which have two, three, four old antimensia under the new one. They just stay there forever.

Some bishops, when they take on responsibility as ruling bishop of a new diocese, like to send every church a new antemension with their own signature and sometimes the priests remember to send back the old one..... I would think that on the whole priests do not bother to send them back to the diocese.

When we were very poor and had no epitaphion (plashchanitsa) for Good Friday we made one from our old and unused antimension after removing the relics.