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http://ncronline.org/news/vatican-stops-womens-ordinations-catholic-church

Vatican stops women's ordinations in Catholic church
Dec. 08, 2009
By Kim Cain, Religion News Service


MELBOURNE, Australia -- An Anglican ordination that was scheduled to be held in a Roman Catholic church in rural Australia was moved to a Protestant church because the Vatican refused to have women ordained in a Catholic building.


Here's my question: Why would a Catholic Church allow an ordination ceremony for the Anglican Church since the Catholic Church does not recognize Anglican orders as valid, irregardless of whether or not the ordination was of a male or female?

There are many instances of Catholic churches being opened to Anglican ceremonies as an ecumenical gesture, going back quite awhile. If you check out the website of the UK Bishop's Conference, you may also find the guidelines they have established which allow Anglican communities to use not only their buildings, but also furnishings, vestments, and sacred vessels in certain circumstances. Nothing new there. But maybe the free-wheeling days of that sort of thing are coming to and end.

BOB

interesting. I didn't know that.
thanks

The RC Cathedral here in Hartford was given over to the ELCA Lutherans some years ago for a huge celebration that they were having because they did not have a church building large enough for it. They celebrated the Eucharist on the altar and everything. I think that it happens more than we realize.

I actually think it doesn't happen more than we realize. Yes, it has happened a few times, but from what I can tell, it is by no means "common," and is becoming rarer and rarer, thanks be to God.

Alexis

Why? What is so wrong with letting a group who needs a space to worship in, use a church building? I can only shake my head at an attitude like that. John

I understand Alexis position. The Altar is a sacred space and is a place where the Priest offers the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass (Divine Liturgy). In my opinion this should only be used by a Catholic Priest to celebrate the Holy Mysteries. This may be the more traditionalist approach but it is one that I agree with.

I don't think it is insulting to stand up for ones traditional beliefs. What would the Fathers of the Church say? Would they allow some one not in communion with them celebrate at the Holy Altar?

Now if they wanted to use a parish hall and set up a service in that, I have no problem with that. But to use a consecrated altar and Church when we don't agree on essential Christian Doctrine is something to be avoided in my opinion. But others are free to disagree with me.

Sorry, Nelson, but I have participated in, and heartily endorse, the celebration of the Eucharist by priests of the Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox and Assyrian Churches on the altars of Catholic Churches. There is only one Eucharist, and as long as the Catholic Church regards the Eucharist of a particular Church as valid, then it can and ought to be celebrated on a Catholic altar if needs be.

I think I should have clarified. I would agree with you about Churches that according to the Catholic Church are Sister Churches although not in communion with the Holy See can use Catholic Churches. But since we were talking about Anglican and Lutheran services at Catholic Altars that’s what I was referring to. Since many Anglicans and Lutherans disagree with the fundamental teachings of Apostolic Christianity they shouldn’t celebrate in Roman Churches, in my opinion. I am not trying to pass judgment but since they disagree with the essential elements of our faith, to use our altars would seem to me to be most inappropriate.

Stuart,

Let's assume we're leaving aside the question of whether other Apostolic Christians should be allowed to celebrate the Mass/Liturgy on Catholic altars.

Here, at least, it's about Anglicans (and now Lutherans), who are of course not Apostolic Christians, have radically different beliefs about the Holy Eucharist, the sacrificial nature of worship, have no actual Orders, etc.

John asks why I would have a problem with groups my own Church considers not even to be actual Churches in the proper sense from celebrating their religious services at Catholic altars dedicated to the re-presentation of and the partaking in the one Sacrifice of Christ on the Cross. Frankly, I'm somewhat flummoxed that this would need an explanation and wonder if the point of it is to engage me in a debate about the merits of the Catholic Church's position on the [lack of certain] Sacraments of these Protestant bodies, which is a debate I do not wish to engage myself in at the moment.

But in the event that it's not an attempt to start such a debate, I think it's clear enough that it is:

1) Confusing to the faithful. Letting Anglicans and Lutherans use Catholic temples and altars gives the impression of legitimacy to these rites, a legitimacy which Catholic belief denies them. It is harmful to the faithful. One could ask, "Why does the Church believe this about these groups, and then let them use ours holy altars and consecrated spaces?" "The Church must not be serious about her position." Ad infinitum...

2) An affront to the sacred space and dignity of the altar and consecrated space itself. The altar has been explicitly consecrated for the celebration of the Holy Sacraments, not for mockeries of them. The sacrality and unique nature of a space is, yes, often understood not just by what it includes therein, but also what it excludes. If empty rituals - worse, rituals that ape, to a certain degree, grace-giving Sacraments of the Church - are allowed in the very place set apart for the exclusive celebration of the Church's Sacraments, what kind of message does that send about the holy, unique, sublime, life-giving nature of the Sacraments themselves?

Alexis

Would you think it ok for Orthodox clergy to celebrate on the Altar? I would.


I'm in agreement with you and others who have posted similar opinions. I think priests want to be charitable with the non-Catholics in need of a space. That's admirable. But in allowing Christian faithful of a non-Catholic church, not Eastern non-Catholic Church, to celebrate a liturgy within the church further confuses the already quit confused Latin Catholic faithful about the meaning of the Mystery that takes place in the Mass at/on the Altar. I cringed leaving daily Mass yesterday as our Altar was being shoved back like a piece of furniture, to make room for some risers on/in the sanctuary space for a concert. Many Protestants would treat their altar and sanctuary with more honor.

Amen and Amen!
Stephanos I

My diocese insisted that our new parish church, built in 1996, have this type of moveable altar, even though official documents say that the altar should be immoveable. Likewise, ours is routinely moved for concerts, including concerts from outside groups--we have a concert series each year.

BOB

The altar in the Byzantine rite is, technically, the Antimension, though sometimes that term is applied to the entire sanctuary behind the Iconostasis. That which is commonly called the altar is technically the Holy Table. And it really is a table--normally square, often forming a cube when its height is considered. The size of the table may vary--some are very small, others, particularly in Ruthenian churches, look like they could have been grandma's big kitchen table--but they are always free-standing and moveable. Yet, because of its location in the sanctuary, there is no danger of the table being moved for profane purposes.

Of course, as Father Serge related, under the Tridentine Mass, the altar was supposed to be made of stone, and solid, and not used for any other purpose, but it was common for them to be fabricated from marble-ized wood and hollow, and used for storage space. Every generation has its own unique abuses.

Stuart, was that really common? I find it hard to believe that something like that would be seriously widespread. I've never heard of it in my life. Not to say that it didn't happen, but...common?

Alexis