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Aramis,

You seem to be defending Marx!

Marx was able to capitalize on the fact that the Industrial Revolution had brought about a new wave of oppression of the poor throughout Europe. At that time, Europe that was still nominally Christian, but the Church, dealing with such problems as its very survival, did not succeed in denouncing this evil effectively. This gave many the impression that the Church was indifferent to, or even endorsed this evil--creating a void that Marx was ready to fill.

Did Marx really believe that simply overthrowing capitalist governments and enforcing an equitable distribution of goods (or what someone would determine was an equitable distribution) would bring about a new era of peace and prosperity for mankind? It's possible, but I'm skeptical.

What I am certain of, however, is that the attraction of Marxism lies in its promise to do away with opression once and for all. I am equally certain that it cannot possibly ever deliver on this promise because its underlying premises are false.

In other words, no government has ever, will ever or could ever implement Marxism as it was laid out by Marx.


Peace,
Deacon Richard

Let's just look at what our Holy Father said about liberation theology to the bishops of Brazil just this past December 5th:


Alexis

Fr. Deacon,

My BA is in History, focussed upon Russian history.

Calling what the Communist parties advocated "Marxism" is as accurate as calling the US a Direct Democracy or the modern UK a divine right absolute monarchy; pure and utter falsehood.

Marxism is not good, but by comparison to the warped and perverted versions implemented, it's small potatoes.

And that's the real problem with Marx; it's actually fairly mild, and aside from the anti-religious views, not too dissimilar to the mode of the early Christian Communes.

However, Aramis, Marx himself had a pathological fascination with political violence which means even if one were to implement communism according to the letter of Marx's Manifesto, the end result would be much the same. All utopian pseudo-religious ideologies, whether from the right or the left, are based on the belief that human nature is malleable and perfectable by human means. Since this is not true, at some point attempts to create the New Man will devolve into mass murder.

Your views of Marx the man are far too benign. I suggest you read the essay about him in Paul Johnson's Intellectuals.

Stuart,

Thanks--this is exactly what I meant!

I would continue to respectfully digagree. The Vatican condemned certain points of Marxism as applied to theology, but did not condemn liberation theology as a school in itself.

Also, let it not be forgotten, that there are several well-known Western Orthodox theologians who considered themselves Socialists, and used Marxist concepts (St Sergius School comes to mind, as does Berdayev's Russian Idea)

A distinction without a difference.

Stuart, while it may not be a difference for you, the current Roman Pope did make such a distinction.

It is still a distinction without a difference. Liberation Theology stripped of its Marxist component makes about as much sense as Christianity stripped of the Resurrection. It is oxymoronic, no matter who tries to make it work, or how often.

Marxism is a tool of social analysis, separate from Stalinism, Leninism, Trotskyism, Maoism, and so on. When I speak of Marxism as a conceptual framework in liberation theology I am speaking of its use of the (Hegelian) idea of history, the teleological force of history, much like our own Christian revelation of last judgement/end times. Liberation theology is very much an implementation of the Book of Acts in the contemporary period. I see history as a theological category, and a structural analysis based upon the perspective of a particular class (and in LT that would be the poor). I don't see how those theoretical categorical contributions of Marxism to Liberation Theology have any negative bearing on the theology as a whole.

Still I didn't intend my question to become a debate, I was just curious if anyone knew if Liberation Theology and Orthodox Christianity have ever had an encounter in the philosophical plane the way it did in the Roman Church?

Thank you.

Marxism is a pseudo-scientific secular religion. As a tool of historical analysis, it's garbage. So is Hegel, but that's another story.

Stuart: While it is one thing to lob baseless cliches at me, it is quite another to address the points I have made and argue them cogently.

Stuart: I have read over your comments, and respectfully, I would ask you to read more of Marx himself (rather then glib interpretations of him) before coming to conclusions of what Marx is saying. You speak of pseudo-science and pathologies, but you have yet to mention one central concept from the work of Marx, unfiltered by Stalinism, etc. I am an Eastern Christian and I do not see how the Marxian analysis of the development of productive forces in industrial/post-industrial society in any way conflicts with the salvation promised by our Lord.

I don't know how any Eastern Christian (or any Christian) can support anything based on Marxism or Marxism itself when one of its core beliefs is that religion is the opium of the people. And that is a direct quote from Marx.

The countless Martyrs of the Communist era bear witness to what Marxism and its offspring lead to- enslavement of the people. The complete opposite of the salvation our Lord promises.

New Martyrs of the Communist Yoke pray for us to the Lord!

Marx's economic analysis process is one of the keystones in the framing of modern macroeconomic theory.

Marx did believe religion is the "opiate of the masses." He also believed that violent overthrow of capitalist economies was as inevitable as the violent end of divine right absolute monarchies. (What I've read of Marx does NOT advocate violence, but does forecast it. A subtle distinction lost on a great many.)

But just because a man had bad ideas, or even acted upon them, doesn't mean all of his ideas should be ignored. Dr. Mengele's horrific experiements rendered the data from which numerous therapies for both anti-rejection drugs and hypothermia treatment were based. Most of the US founding fathers owned slaves, and several believed marriage and religion were evil. One as openly advocating an end to marriage and banning organized religion; he also advocated for the US Postal Service, lending libraries, and more accurate meteorology; he also attempted to ahve sex with a diferent woman every night; Ambassador Benjamin Franklin was, for his day, hypersexual.