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And anyway, the Orthodox Sacraments are valid (yes, I know you Easterners don't like that term). Therefore no mockery of a real Sacrament is taking place.

Which is why I would not object as much (although I still would probably be uncomfortable with it), of a (valid) Protestant baptism taking place in a Catholic church.

Alexis

Well, tough noogies all around. I have seen hundreds, even thousands of people deeply edified by the site of Orthodox bishops celebrating the Holy Eucharist at a Catholic altar, bringing into sharp contrast just how much we have in common--and how deep is the fissure that divides us. These Liturgies bear witness to the potential for our unity, and insofar as the Eucharist is Christ and Christ is one and indivisible, so through these celebrations we mark our fundamental unity.

As to the celebration of the Roman Mass in an Orthodox Church, that is is not done is not necessarily because of any offense that might be taken, but simply that it is physically more difficult to celebrate the Roman Mass in a Byzantine Church than it is to celebrate the Divine Liturgy in a Latin Church. One can erect a temporary iconostasis, but one cannot take down a permanent one. The layout of the Roman sanctuary is easily adapted to the needs of the Byzantine rite, but the Byzantine sanctuary has been tailored far more closely to the needs of the Byzantine liturgy, hence a Roman celebrant would find it difficult to do what he needs to do.

In the preconciliar Latin Church, it would probably have been equally difficult to celebrate the Divine Liturgy in a Roman church because most lacked a free-standing altar.

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I would not necessarily say that a Lutheran Eucharist is a mockery of a real sacrament. It may lack "validity", and would not reflect the unity of faith needed for true communion, but can you actually say that it lacks any grace whatsoever? "We know where the Church is, but we do not know where it is not". Our attitude towards these things must be agnostic, unless a particular confession openly rejects the very concept of sacramentality. We can say we don't know whether Christ is sacramentally present in the Eucharist of those "ecclesial communities" that profess that He is there (disregarding all philosophical arguments over "how" He is present), but we cannot say without any certitude that He is absent.

Gosh Stuart--I couldn't have said it better. Thanks.

That's an Orthodox approach, Stuart, but I don't think a Catholic one. Invalidity means just that: Christ is not present, Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity in invalid Eucharistic celebrations.

It is Catholic teaching that Protestant eucharists are invalid because of their warped views on the priesthood, the meaning of the Eucharistic, the sacrificial nature of the Eucharist, Apostolic Succession, etc.

Do they convey know grace whatsoever? I have no idea...and it really isn't my concern. But what is my concern, and something that should be every Catholic's concern, is the use of a holy space set apart for the Eucharistic Sacrifice by Protestants who the Church has told us, sadly lack a valid Eucharist.

Alexis

Yes, the Catholic Church finds it impossible to grant a formal recognition to Protestant ordinations, and therefore holds them to be "invalid".

No, the Catholic Church does not insist that the ministrations of the Protestant clergy are therefore inefficacious. We simply cannot recognize them as we recognize Catholic, Orthodox, and Old Catholic (of the Union of Utrecht) ordinations.

Fr. Serge

By about the 2nd post, this thread ceased to be related to the news item, so I've moved it from CN to here. But ... keep it on topic - altars as storage cabinets has nothing to do with what has become the topic's focus - the sharing of altars and temples with other faiths.

Btw, I'd note that there was a thread here several years that discussed this in some depth, as I recollect, noting the long-standing charitable practice by which churches of many different faiths have come to the aid of their neighbors in times of fire, and other disasters. The assistance has included providing worship space and, in some cases, affording the use of vestments and liturgical accoutrements. The explosion at St Mary's UGCC parish in CT a few years ago offered one example of this; another occurred when the Melkite parish in Yonkers was destroyed by fire several years back.

Many years,

Neil

Neil--obviously allowing a group to use a building as a one shot deal, as happened here at the Cathedral in Hartford with the Lutherans because they did not have a church building big enough for the celebration that they were having, is certainly a charitable and gracious thing to do. I remember friends of my mother who went and were in such awe of the building, and commenting how nice it was to be able to have it in a church rather than a civic center type setting, which was their only other option.

As to Protestant rites being mockeries or aping of "real" sacraments, I think that it does one good to remember that Christ said, "Wherever two or three are gathered in my name, I am in their midst."

Roman celebrations in Byzantine churches do happen, without taking down the iconostasis. For me it looks quite good:

[Linked Image]


A notable exception is St. Peter's Basilica in Rome. There were pictures of Byzantine Divine Liturgy held at St. Peter's available on the web, but now I'm unable to find them.