www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Hello Forum

Greetings everyone,

I would just like to introduce myself. I'm a 20-something member of the
Liberal Catholic Church, Province of the USA [liberalcatholic.tripod.com]

I am currently working on a Masters degree in pastoral ministries.

Recently, by way of another Forum, there was talk about the relationship between the Liberal Rite (the liturgy used within the LCC) and the liturgy of St. John Chrysostom.
E/O CC Liturgy [global.org]

Anyway, I thought it was worth sharing and also wanted to get some impressions from an Eastern perspective.

I'm really curious.

Oh and finally, I totally understand that Liberal Catholicism is off-putting to some. But I believe it is more misunderstood than anything else, so I'm willing to share any information about the Church if anyone wants to know.

I pray my time here will be fruitful.

LibCath

Welcome to the forum, LibCath.

As you note, any discussion of the Liberal Catholic Church is a subject that is likely to garner a less than enthusiastic response here, from both Catholics and Orthodox. However, I trust that our members will be courteous in discussion, dialogue, and even debate, should it come to that.

Many years,

Neil

LC2K: it would have been better if you had included a link to the authoritative liturgical text of the LCC.

A quick look through one of the texts from the LCC site (The Mystical Mass in English (LCC) ALTAR BOOK [global.org]) shows it to be closer to the Anglican use than anything else I've seen, albeit with rubrics for traditional Catholic vestments (to wit, the maniple and biretta).

The rubrics are interesting; they appear set up so that any person familiar with liturgical standards in the Western Rites could take it and follow it, even in unfamiliar vestments. And this is the moderate level of rubrics...

It looks very much to be the mass of trent redone in english; it is very close to the Knott missal of the anglicans, which is much the same issue.


looking at another version: http://www.global.org/Pub/LCCI_Eucharist.asp

It is text only, and like the former, reminds me most of the Knott Missal and the trent liturgy.

If these are in fact the LCC liturgy, and the notations on development are accurate, then it is a revision of the trent liturgy, since that is the liturgy of the Old Catholic Church of Utrecht, from which the LCC schismed. the OCC being a vatican I triggered schism itself, they retained the trent liturgy, but migrated it to the vernacular before Rome did.

Were I to encounter it without labels, I'd easily note it isn't the Roman Liturgy, but a derivative.

Comparing those to the "Old Catholic Rite [global.org]" it's clear that the LCC liturgy is very nearly identical.


Therefore, the claim that the DL of St John is the basis of the LCC liturgy seems overtly disingenuous; the lack of the ektenie, the use of the roman-specific vestments and symbols, the types of propers, the nature of the prayers of preparation, the lack of prothesis... all says "ROMAN!!!"

It could be passed off as a mild abuse of the OF liturgy... and many modern Romans would hardly bat an eye should they encounter it.

I guess it will depend on what you consider Liberal Catholicism.

Shlomo LibCath,

Welcome to the board. I know of some of the history of your Church, and even though I do not agree with what you believe, please feel free to share.

On this board, nearly all of us are loving Christians, but also human.

Fush BaShlomo,
Yuhannon

Shlomo Neil,

I will work as always to witness as a Christian. Thank you for your work here and help keeping the cats corraled.

Fush BaShlomo,
Yuhannon

Neil,

Thank you for the welcome. I am always open to dialogue with others, so I'm looking forward to my time here. :)

LibCath

Aramis,

LC2K...I like it! I'm officially changing my signature to that... :)

Anyway...you said...

[quote]it would have been better if you had included a link to the authoritative liturgical text of the LCC.[/quote]

The authoritative liturgical text used in the LCC is the Short Form of the LCC liturgy, which is quite similar to this [url=http://www.global.org/Pub/LCCI_Eucharist.asp]one[/url]. Which you have already linked.

As you've noted, this liturgy is in its essentials, the Tridentine rite done in the vernacular. So by virtue of this, the LCC liturgy is similar to the one used by the Old Catholics.

However, because of the early esoteric qualities of the Liberal Catholic movement, there are subtle but important distinctions which should be clear to those who are knowledgeable of either the Roman or Old Catholic rites.

Quite unfortunately, the current form of the LCC liturgy, which has since undergone minor revisions from the 1920 version, linked above, is not available online. However, through the St. Alban's Press in Ojai, California, they can be purchased.

Anyway, as I said in the opening, some members on another Forum have been discussing the relationship between the Byzantine and LCC liturgies in depth, but they are lacking the Eastern Christian perspective.

Perhaps this link will help the discussion here.

[url=http://www.global.org/Pub/JIW_Orthodoxy.asp]The Liberal vs Orthodox vs Roman Churches[/url]


LC2K ;)

Kathleen,

The Liberal Catholicism that I am talking about refers to a very specific movement within the Church which took root in the 1800's. The word [b]Liberal[/b] in this sense refers to the classical meaning of the word, which among other things, meant freedom of thought.

So...I am not referring to (small case) [i]liberal[/i] Roman Catholicism.

LC2K

Yuhannon,

Thanks for the welcome!


I think it would be a good idea to just present some basic points of belief that the LCC has. Please keep in mind that I belong to the original LCC and not one of the subsequent schismatic groups, which often hold extremely different views from us.

Some Points of Similarity

In no particular order...

1. We uphold the Trinitarian nature of God
2. We hold to the Apostolic Succession of Bishops, Priests, and Deacons.
3. Our holy orders are valid.
4. Our Church only ordains men.
5. We are a worldwide church.
6. We uphold the traditional seven Sacraments.
7. We believe in the real presence of Christ in the Holy Eucharist.
8. We show great reverence toward the Blessed Sacrament.
9. We have special devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary, including the Rosary.
10. We believe in angels and saints who intercede for us.

Some Points of Distinction

1. Clerical celibacy is optional
2. Our clergy receive no remuneration for their work
3. We practice Open Communion
4. Our parish properties are controlled by our local communities
5. We are governed by a Synod of bishops who elect a Presiding Bishop
9. Divorce and remarriage are not impediments to the sacraments or Church life

As noted, there are more similarities and more differences that exist but these can be discussed later. The ones I've mentioned above are perhaps some of the most notable.

Hope this helps!

LC2K

The Liberal Catholic Church (LCC) is a specific offshoot/schism of the Old Catholic Church - Union of Utrecht (OCC-UU). Until recently, Utrecht was held by the Catholic Church to be in similar (tho more recent) status to the Eastern Orthodox Communion; Utrecht's acceptance of the ordination of Women has rendered the official Catholic view of Utrecht to be no longer equivalent, tho' some individual OCC-UU clerics might be possessed of valid orders and thus confect valid Eucharist.

As to the LCC, they had valid orders, but I don't know if they still do, and whether they hold to the heresy of female presbyters which has affected the OCC-UU and several other OCC groups.

Just to clarify - there are 2 distinct churches in the US that are typically referred to as the Liberal Catholic Church.

Liberal Catholic Church, Province of the USA [liberalcatholic.tripod.com] (LCC/PUSA), to which our new member belongs, and the Liberal Catholic Church International [liberalcatholic.org], aka the Liberal Catholic Church in the US (LCCI/LCCUS). The two resulted from doctrinal differences that culminated in a lawsuit, as a result of which the latter was granted exclusive use of the name 'LCC in the US'.

Last time I checked, both were approximately the same size in terms of numbers of parishes, faithful, and clergy.

In addition, there are a significant number of other, smaller, bodies which claim to derive historically from the LCC and cite Bishops Wedgewood and/or Leadbetter (founding hierarchs of the Liberal Catholic movement) as their episcopal progenitors. (Their first US bishop consecrated 8 others, as I recollect, and at least 6 of those eventually broke away and created their own ecclesia, a common occurrence in the early history of the Old Catholics in the US and a principal reason why Utrecht ceased maintaining communion with any of the jurisdictions established in the US). Likely the best known of the offshoot churches is Herman Adrian Spruitt's Catholic Apostolic Church of Antioch - Malabar Rite, of which we've spoken here at some length on prior occasions.

A quick review of belief systems and doctrine at the websites of the two main LCC bodies doesn't readily distinguish the doctrinal differences of the two and I don't have time right this minute to go into what they are. I will say that both are significantly more mainstream in beliefs than any of the myriad off-shoots with which I'm familiar. A couple of points -

When the LCCI/LCCUS and LCC/PUSA split, it was in some measure related to the former's intent to distance from the theosophical tenets that had been part and parcel of its doctrinal base and liturgical praxis since Bishop Wedgewood's day. What would become the LCC/PUSA was disinclined to making that break; whether that is still the case, and theosophy still plays an important part in its belief and praxis, I'll leave to our new member to explain, as I haven't paid a lot of attention to the issue in recent years.

Theosophy aside, the LCCI/LCCUSA ordains women to all holy orders, last I knew. The LCC/PUSA historically ordained only men - but split a few years back into what are termed the Old or Theosophia Synod (to which I believe our friend LC2K belongs), which bars female ordinands, and the New Synod, which allows for female ordinations.

Aramis suggests that the LCC had valid orders. With all due respect to our new member, I think that most commentators would suggest that the validity of those orders is suspect as far back as the point at which Bishops Wedgewood and Leadbetter introduced theosophy into their belief and praxis systems.

Many years,

Neil

PS - thinking about the point that was raised at the outset, I seem to recollect that Bishop Wedgewood reportedly worked on but never completed a liturgy based on that of St John Chrysostom - and that there were and have been issues raised as to the authenticity of the work - that is, whether it could be verified as his or was done by someone else and attributed to him after his death, in an effort to give it more credibility.

We had a convert Liberal Catholic priest, now dead (God rest him) who revealed that part of the priestly vocation includes liberally spreading the grace of God and one thing he did to accomplish this was to consecrate the bread rolls and carafes of wine when he was eating at restaurants. It wasn't for *his* benefit but for the waiters and kitchen staff who might eat and drink.

Is that something acceptable among Liberal Catholic priests? This man was delighfully eccentric and what he did might be disapproved by the Liberal Catholic Church?

This is essentially correct. Theosophical elements were, and are part of the heritage of the LCC. However, we are NOT Theosophists and the Church itself does not belong to any Theosophical organizations. In fact, from the very beginning many within the Theosophical movement discouraged involvement in the very Christian LCC.

Today, the LCC, which I belong to, which is the true successor to the Church of our Founders, still values some theosophical elements. These elements are useful in terms of helping to explain the mystical nature of our sacramental and liturgical life. Moreover, individual members are not expected to hold any specific theosophical teachings.

Finally, I belong to the LCC, Province of the USA, and our international body, the Liberal Catholic Church, worldwide, which I have already linked above.

Any other group, calling itself Liberal Catholic, including the Theosophia Synod has nothing to do with me or my Church. With many offshoots, as all of our Catholic and Orthodox churches seem to have, sometimes it becomes necessary to state clearly who we are and are not in communion with.

LC2K

PS: Can a moderator please fix the problem of my quotes and other notations above that did not seem to carry over correctly when I previously posted.

The Liberal vs Orthodox vs Roman Churches [global.org]

Here is the corrected link, which talks a little more about the supposed relationship between the Eastern liturgy and the LCC liturgy.

Again, it would be interesting to get the Eastern take on this...as I too have a hard time seeing any explicit connections.

LC2K