www.byzcath.org Forums News & Events Church News Pope-Patriarch Meeting

[quote=StuartK][quote]It did not neccessarily always have a say in what happened under its auspices in Soviet Time[/quote]s.

As I have noted, Soviet times are long past (though look likely to be returning), and the Orthodox Church continues to insist that the false synods which abolished the Greek Catholic Churches in Ukraine, Romania, Slovakia and elsewhere were legitimate, uncoerced expressions of the will of the faithful of those communities. It's bad why a Church lies to others, but it's worse when it lies to itself. [/quote]

20 years is long past, eh? Then we should expect that 45+ years would be too ancient to even talk of.

And I'd be more careful about accusations of false characterizations of false synods as legitimate, uncoerced expressions of the will of the faithful.

Btw, in Slovakia, the unions of Brest, Uzhhorod and Alba Iulia were legalized once again during Communism. Not all went back, but the post communist government decades later gave them all the properties anyway.

[quote=Fr Serge Keleher]Sorry to contradict, but the cases are not parallel. Eastern Orthodoxy continued, in Poland and in Austria-Hungary. Moreover, it was a century before L'viv and Peremyshyl accepted the Union of Brest - doesn't sound like force to me. After the Stauropegion Brotherhood accepted the Union, another Eastern Orthodox parish and church were immediately organized in L'viv, under the jurisdiction of the Orthodox Metropolitan of Bukovyna. In Transylvania, once the dust settled, so to speak, the Greek-Catholics were at most about 50%. In the portions of Serbo-Croatia which belonged to Austria-Hungary, not only were the Orthodox not disturbed but the government financed the printing of service-books. And so on.

Such conditions did not apply in the USSR or in Communist Romania.

Fr. Serge [/quote]

I am always amuzed, with a grisely humor, by Muslims who claim that the continued existence of the Ecumenical Patriarchate in Istanbul proves how tolerant Islam is.

The Orthodox were outlawed in the Polish Lithuanian Commonwealth in 1596. A clandestine hierarchy was consecrated by the Patriarch of Jerusalem in 1620: the bishop of L'viv was forced to subscribe to the "Union of Brest," but then went illegally, but canonically, over to Iasi, Moldavia for consecration, and Patriarch Theophanes III came, illegally as foreign i.e. Orthodox clergy were banned in the realm, to consecrate a bishop for Peremyshl. He ended up consecrating the whole new hierarchy. When the King had to finally admit the failure of Brest, he refused to recognize the clandestinely ordained bishops, and insisted on others.
Four hundred years Union of Brest (1596-1996) By Bert Groen, William Peter van den Bercken
http://books.google.com/books?id=9FN9gT7CQw4C&pg=PA67&dq=Brest+Patriarch+of+Jerusalem&cd=1#v=onepage&q=Brest%20Patriarch%20of%20Jerusalem&f=false

There was no Bukowina until 1777-1786.

The dust didn't settle in Transylvania until Adolf Nikolaus von Buccow rampaged in the 1760's in a final effort for Marie Theresa to exterminate the "schismatic Vlachs," hunting down Orthodox monks, blowing up Orthodox monasteries, tearing down Orthodox Churches, etc.

At least you got the Serbian part right (although the Serbs had to fight for those rights: they had been banned from having schools, printshops etc. but directed to those controled by the Vatican's hierarchy. Only after two decades of requesting, in 1727, did the Serbs begin to get the right to their own schools etc. Of course, the Serbs also proved themseles protecting the frontier and protecting Hapsburg interests against the Hungarians.

[quote=StuartK][quote]Whereas, by contrast, once you have some measure of state sanction by an atheist government you are bound to compromise in some manner. This was true of the MP as well as some Catholic hierarchs in Poland etc.[/quote]

True. The telling point is how you respond once the oppressor is overthrown. A true Christian would tell the truth, regardless of personal consequences, and would endeavor to atone for whatever compromises were made.

I, too, hold out hope that the Church may become the moral center of Russian life, but I sincerely believe for that to happen, the Russian Orthodox Church must confront the history of the Soviet period in a fully transparent manner. [/quote]

St. Alexis Kabalyuk

Help yourself; it's not mine, anyway . . .

I think I already know all three attorney jokes that are funny, though . . .

EDIT after reading the rest of the thread:

For crying out loud, folks . . . horrible things and great injustice happened to all "sides" . . . each side demanding that the other admit to fault in all matters and apologize when both clearly have transgressed, regardless of the comparative levels, is hardly a Christian response and hardly a reason for "Christians" to oppose Christian unity. If we can put an end to this false schism, *The* Church will be composed of those formerly belonging to each side of the childish split . . .

hawk, esq.