www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology I'm very confused

Hi :)

I registered on this forum a while ago, and I honestly don't remember if I asked this question or not... but I looked through my 'posts' and it says I don't have any, and I can't find this topic on the forum.

I was baptized Russian Orthodox as a child, and have since become a Catholic. I found out a while ago that I'm actually Eastern (Russian) Catholic. This really complicates things for me because although I really like the Eastern Rites, I don't live near any Eastern rite churches (I checked) and I practice my faith as a Latin Catholic...I go to a Roman Catholic parish, pray the Rosary, go to Adoration, etc (all the Latin traditions/customs). I also don't have an Eastern Spiritual Father but a spiritual director who is a Roman Catholic priest.

I was told that I should still follow the Eastern fasts and days of obligation... and that for me is very difficult. My family isn't fasting now (it's Lent.) and out of charity I can't just refuse all the meals. I also heard that Eastern Catholics fast under guidance of their priest, but again I don't live near an Eastern church. And I can't always make it to Mass for the days of obligation if they're not on Sunday, for transportation reasons and also because I have classes!

So I'm actually trying to find out if it's possible for me to switch to Roman Catholic... and then if I move to a place that has an Eastern parish nearby, I can attend and see what it's like, and receive the Eucharist there too :) there are Eastern traditions I really like, for example the liturgy and the icons. If I can't change rites, or if it's God's will for me to be Eastern Catholic, I hope I can figure out how to actually live it out on an everyday basis.. and that's the confusing part.

the Eastern Lent starts today.. and the Latin one starts on Wednesday. Would you say that I'm bound to the Eastern one, in my particular situation?

I'm also wondering - what is the Russian Catholic fasting schedule anyway? I can't seem to find any info online.. is it like the Russian Orthodox one? But which calendar do they follow? My families EO church follow the old calendar... what about Russian Catholics?

I hope someone here knows... lol! Thanks!! :)

Yes, you can definitely change rites, as it is called.

But you may not want to or need to. I am not sure what your bishop told you, but the Russian Catholics are a church without its own hierarchy so you are subject to the latin bishop. You can attend latin rite services and follow latin rite customs if that is best for you even without formally changing rites.

The Russian Catholics follow the same calendar as the Russian Orthodox, and the same fasting rules. This year it is convenient to have a go at learning the calendar, because Easter occurs on the same new style date.

The best resource I can think of for learning more is the online Jordanville calendar, which aside from telling you what Russian Catholics are doing each day, will also tell you how they are fasting.

http://www.holytrinityorthodox.com/calendar/

Fasting rules can become complicated, and it is best to just follow a reliable calendar that says what changes each day. The basic principle though is that Russian christians are vegan (no eggs, dairy, meat, fish) and avoid alcohol through lent.

As with anything else the guiding principle is talk to a spiritual advisor who knows you and do what is best for your soul.

"Let us begin the fast with joy!"

Welcome-


Might you have posted on another Forum? Your story sounds familiar. Were you Baptized/Chrismated Orthodox but basically not really catechized in the Orthodox tradition?

Anyway, when you became Catholic it should have been noted in your records that your were canonically Russian Catholic. You had to provide a recent copy of your Baptismal certificate, Russian Orthodox, to the Latin parish before you made your profession of faith and were received into the Catholic Church.

It's generally discouraged for ECs to make a change of Church sui iuris to the Latin Church. Talk with your pastor about the process. If he is unfamiliar with it, probably, then talk with the chancery/diocese.

You understand correctly that we ECs who live in Latin parishes do still follow the fasts/abstentions of our Byzantine Church, but that that should be done with guidance as you mentioned. Hopefully some of our clergy will speak up about this. My own feeling is that you should consider the purpose of fasting and then look to what you could do well during the fast and seek to earnestly follow that much.

I highly recommend the interview Fasting in the Byzantine Church Year [youtube.com] with Fr. Moses of Holy Resurrection Romanian Catholic Monastery as well as Feasting in the Byzantine Church Year [youtube.com] on the same website. His teaching on the place of fasting and feasting in our liturgical year is very helpful.

Is there a Russian Orthodox Church near you? This week has Compline and Great Canon services in the evenings tonight, Tues and Th and Presanctified Liturgy Wed and Friday. It would be wonderful if you could get to some of those. The Presanctified Liturgies, on Wed and Fridays in Great Lent, involve Holy Eucharist which you would not partake of but you can share in the rest of the liturgy. I was at a Russian Orthodox Church tonight myself due to the lack of the services in my tiny Byzantine Catholic Church.

Have you spoken with your spiritual director about these issues? If he's a qualified director he should be able to give you some guidance even if he's unfamiliar with Eastern practices.

It would be a change in Church sui iuris, rather than a change in rites, although the Churches do have different rites.

Hi, Litte Flower,

Welcome to the forum. It's always a pleasure to have another Russian Catholic in our midst - we have several members from the RGC parishes in the US.

Actually, you're not very confused at all. You present a much clearer picture of your situation and have a much better understanding of the issues than do most who suddenly find that they are of a different Church than they previously believed.

My brother, Otsheylnik, has offered a very good explanation (and that he did so is a great example of what this site is all about - that a member of ROCOR would take the time to explain the hows and whys of Russian Catholicism to a former Russian Orthodox who translated to Catholicism through the Latin Church).

I'd offer one correction to his post - the proper terminology is now 'transfer of canonical enrollment', rather than 'change of rites'. Otherwise, what my brother has said is accurate, but I'd like to expand a bit in reply to a couple of your specific points.

1. Feast Day Liturgical Observance
(Note, I didn't say 'obligation', because that is a foreign concept to Eastern Christians, who look on attendanceas a blessing, while 'obligation' carries a sense of a burden)

As was said, Russian Greek Catholics (RGC) generally follow the calendar of their Russian Orthodox (RO) brethren. As a result, those feast days on which the faithful should make every effort to be present at Divine Liturgy or some other liturgical celebration (e.g., Vespers) will generally not differ. (The exception being later canonized Saints in the RO calendar who are not in that of the RGC calendar - and you'll find some RGC observe those as well).

As you seem aware, in the absence of any EC parish, you could observe these feasts by attending Mass at a Latin church, even though the feast commemorated there on that day would differ (in almost every instance). But, you raise the valid issues of transportation and scheduling. That impossibility dispenses from expectation is a long-standing rule and applies here.

There are, however, a couple of alternatives available to you.

If distance and schedule permit, you can attend Vespers on the evening of the Great Feasts at any EO church that might be near you and thus observe the Feast. Several ECs here, who either are geographically separated from the pastoral care of their own church or wish to follow a fuller liturgical schedule than their parish offers, do this and are invariably welcomed. (It could even be your former RO parish, if there is not tension there with respect to your translation to Catholicism.)

The other alternative, which doesn't rely on the proximity of any parish - Catholic or Orthodox - and avoids the problems of transportation and schedules - is to observe the feast personally through appropriate prayer on the day or its vigil. I will leave to my brethren, Ot'ets Nastoiatel'/Father Economos Roman (who serves the RGC parish in NYC) or Diak/Deacon Randy (who serves a UGC parish, but is RGC in his heart) to elaborate on the ways that one might do this. (I've pm'ed both to call this thread to their attention.)

2. Transferring canonical enrollment to the Latin Church

You could do this, probably with relative ease, since - as Otsheylnik has noted - the RGC Church is without hierarchy and, as such, RGCs are subject to the local Latin ordinary. A written request to your Latin bishop would, in all likelihood, result in approval of the request. (He is, in this instance, both of the hierarchs who would normally be required to approve the transfer.) However, because such changes are ordinarily allowed only once, you might find it more difficult to transfer back, should a future geographic move put you somewhere that would allow you to fully practice your Eastern heritage.

My sense is that you are ambivalent enough about giving up your heritage that you might rather try to live an Eastern Catholic liturgical life, albeit worshipping in a Latin setting for the time - something you can do, as described above.

3. Fasting

As Otsheylnik has suggested, I'd take up the conflicts between Latin and Eastern fasting with your spiritual director. Though a Latin priest, he's most familiar with your circumstances and, as a representative of your hierarch should have the necessary authority to dispense you as needed.

Regretably, RGC parishes are few and far between. The only such in Canada, Presentation of the Virgin was suppressed in 1997.

Other Eastern and Oriental Catholic Churches are reasonably well-represented in Canada, except in the Maritimes and some western areas. Parishes of Byzantine Rite Churches, including Ukrainian (some of which are pastorally Hungarian or Romanian), Melkite, and Slovak, are scattered across the country. There are also a number of non-Byzantine Oriental Catholic parishes (Maronite, Chaldean, Syriac, Armenian, Ethiopian/Eritrean, Coptic, and Syro-Malabar). Our Directory is not yet complete as far as the Canadian parishes but, if there is any doubt in your mind as to whether any are near you, please feel free to e-mail me at ec_parish_webmaster@yahoo.com with an idea of your location, and I can confirm for you which, if any, might be near you.

In case you can't tell, I'm anxious that you try to maintain your connection to the RGC, if possible. While I'm not a Russian Catholic, it was through the RGC Church that I came to know Eastern Catholicism and I have an abiding love of that Church. That it is in a constant struggle for survival saddens me greatly; as well, I always find it a matter of great regret that we lose any Eastern or Oriental Catholic from any of our Churches.

Many years,

Neil

PS - I see that in the several hours since I started typing (interrupted by all manner of things), Mary Louise has offered some very good points. (I was thinking of her, particularly, when I wrote of those who attend liturgical services at nearby EO parishes when their EC parish doesn't offer as full a liturgical schedule as they would like to observe.)

It was so worth the drive to get to the Russian Orthodox parish tonight!!! I only wish I could go tomorrow as well, but responsibilities in my Latin parish preclude that.

Thank you, Neil, for reinforcing the notion of putting off any change in canonical status and your suggestions of how LittleFlower might approach the differences in fasts/abstentions and Feastdays East and West, as well as within her family.

-Marylouise, fasting with joy! (so far LOL)
P.S. As to our constant struggle in the RGC Church, I maybe haven't said lately but we have a wonderful Latin priest who has been learning the ropes, concelebrating with Fr Eugene, and was the main celebrant on Forgiveness Sunday, and also we have now a wonderful, canonically Ukrainian EC, Dominican Brother/Fr Hierodeacon who will be ordained to the priesthood in June and we hope will return to us if his order ships him out for a while. None of the other clergy, including our beloved Fr Deacon Kyrill, was able to make it for Meeting of Christ in the Temple when Fr Eugene lead us boldly all on his lonesome, supported beautifully by our mighty choir (of 5 I think that night, good turn out they had.) As I recall we had a very traditional look that night-- males for clergy and choir, females for the remaining "faithful". LOL
Keep us in your prayers.

And remember I am a former Russian Catholic adherent to boot I like your idea about the OP going to vespers/ vigil at an Orthodox parish, but didn't want to recommend it myself lest it was seen as proselytising.

wow thank you everyone! :) that really helps.

I was told at the chancery office that I'm Eastern Catholic.. but I haven't yet spoken to the Bishop. It's interesting that Russian Catholics are subject to the Latin Bishop.. I'll try to talk to him regarding my options.

I don't want to totally get rid of my Eastern heritage, and even if I'll become Roman Catholic I'd still like to visit Eastern Catholic churches and receive Communion there, and use some Eastern prayers.. however I don't feel that I can be totally Eastern either, because there are many Latin devotions that I really love (Rosary, Adoration, the brown scapular, Sacred Heart devotion, Divine Mercy, etc.) I feel like I'm both Eastern and Western, in a way! hmm..

Some of you suggested going to an Orthodox church for the feast days/Vespers... I actually live in an area that doesn't have Eastern Catholic or Orthodox churches. There's an Orthodox church in a nearby town (not Russian though), but I can't get there... I don't have a car so I have to rely on rides to go to church. My family is Orthodox, but they don't really attend church because it's so far.

Maybe for now, - before I talk to my spiritual director or the bishop - I'll try following the Eastern fast. Are there any 'days of obligation' that I should keep in mind for the near future? (ie before Easter).

I'm glad that Easter is on the same day this year for both Catholics and Orthodox :) I want so much for the two churches to reunite. That would be great if it happened soon, but I don't know if it will.

There's one other question I had... when I became Catholic, I was told by my parish priest that I'm going to be Roman Catholic cause it's a Latin rite parish. I don't think many people know about this - that if an Orthodox person becomes Catholic, they'd be Eastern Catholic... I don't think that's something the priests have to deal with a lot in my area because there are so few Orthodox here.

I just wanted to check... according to the Eastern canon law, was everything about my "conversion" (from lack of a better word) valid? I didn't go through RCIA, I just met with the priest one on one to discuss Catholic teachings. Then I went to Confession right before Easter, and on Easter Vigil I made my profession of faith and received the Eucharist. Does this make me a Catholic? (an Eastern Catholic who attends a Roman Catholic parish). The priest did not tell me I'm going to be Russian Catholic, because that wasn't known at that time. (I only found out through the chancery/diocese office). I was baptized and chrismated Orthodox as a child.. but I don't have documentation of this. I remember it very clearly, cause I was ~12 years old, but I was not given a baptism certificate. When I was becoming Catholic, my family tried contacting the Orthodox church to ask for a certificate or at least the date of my baptism, but they never got back to us :( so when I became Catholic, I got two witnesses to sign a statement that said I was indeed baptized and chrismated.

But I just wanted to check... I became Catholic in the right way? I just had to do a profession of faith and receive the Eucharist? And it doesn't matter that it was in a Latin Rite parish - should it have been an Eastern Catholic one? (but I dont live near one)

sorry this is so long... :o

Thanks!!

LittleFlower,

Yes, you were received properly into communion with the Catholic Church - that is, by confession alone - which is how an Orthodoz Christian who has been baptised, chrismated, and communed should be received. The parish register should be annotated as to the fact that you are a Russian Catholic by reason of having been received from Russian Orthodoxy.

Many years,

Neil

Russian Catholics are subject to the Latin Bishop because there are no Russian Greek Catholic canonical jurisdictions in NA - nor elsewhere for that matter. The faithful of those Eastern & Oriental Catholic Churches which are without a hierarchy of their own in a place are generally subject to the Latin hierarch, unless some specific provisions to the contrary have been made.

In the US, one RGC parish is under the spiritual omophor (jurisdiction) of the Melkite Eparch, although canonically (jurisdictionally/legally) subject to the Latin hierarch - this because the Latin hierarch specificaly asked this of the Melkites. Another is informally under the spiritual omophor of the Melkites; yet another, also informally, under the spiritual omophor of the Romanians. The fourth has no such situation, but is served by a Melkite priest.

In Australia, the Russians are likewise under the spiritual omophor of the Melkites. Elsewhere in the world, they are, as far as I know, under Latin jurisdiction.

There are a small number of other Eastern and Oriental Catholic Churches that are in this same situation, at least outside their historical lands. The Russians, however, have not had a hierarch since the last reposed in the 1990s and their only two canonical jurisdictions - the Apostolic Exarchates of Moscow and Harbin (China) have been vacant since the last incumbents were martyred under the Communists.

Many years,

Neil

Thanks Neil! :)

LittleFlower- I do remember your story from another forum. It's nice that you're here. I think this is a great place for getting help with your concerns.

I was reminded of something that came up there about feast and fasts which I'd (obviously from my prior post) forgotten.


So, you can fulfill all of your obligations regarding fasting and feasting by adopting the Latin laws of your territory.

I had confirmed that with my canon law teacher that when living where one cannot participate in one's own Church sui iuris then one can abide by "the feast days and days of penance which are in force where they are staying." and that "where they are staying" would be their home (Latin in your case) parish.

Nonetheless there's much to be gained in the calendar and practices of the East and I continue to hope you'll explore them. My prejudice in that direction had blotted out my memory of this Canon.


You might start to think if there is anyone in your parish who might also have some interest in the Eastern/Orthodox Liturgies who might be willing to drive you and go with you a few times. Great Lent is such a rich time for us. You could try putting something in your parish bulletin. I put stuff about the EC feasts in my Latin parish bulletin all the time. You might find another EC actually in your parish, or someone with a interest in the ECCs.

E're the optimist...

Neil was able to cover already the questions you raised in this last post. Just to say your parish uses the Roman Rite of the Latin Church. (Where is the face with the eyes spinning around?)

Hi everyone :)

Some news.. I was able to speak to my spiritual director as well, and - the Bishop said I'm indeed Eastern Catholic, but can attend a Roman Catholic parish. He also said I can switch if I really want to, but it's not necessary. Then, I asked if I still need to follow the Eastern fast... and I was told (not by the Bishop) that I probably don't have to in my situation. I'm trying to decide what I should do about the fast.... it's very difficult for me to find food according to the Russian Orthodox/Catholic fasting calendar, - at my university even the salad has oil in it. I don't think I'll be able to live on bread and fruit salad lol. But there's really not much else, in university or at home.. everything seems to have oil/cheese.

I'm a little confused about this canon:

CCEO Canon 883 - §1. The Christian faithful who are outside the territorial boundaries of their own Church sui iuris can adopt fully for themselves the feast days and days of penance which are in force where they are staying.
§2. ...

If the Russian Catholic church doesn't have a 'territorial boundary', cause they're subject to the Latin Bishop, - does this still apply if the nearest Russian Catholic church is in another diocese?

I'm wondering what you all think.. my spiritual director said it's alright for me to follow the Roman Catholic fast, but I'm not sure what the Bishop said about this, it seems they mostly talked about which church I belong to etc.

thanks! :)

Little Flower,

I'd agree with your spiritual director.

You are unquestionably outside the territorial bounds of the Russian GC Church. Even were hierarchs to be appointed tomorrow to its extant but presently vacant sees - the Exarchates of Moscow and Harbin, its territorial bounds would not extend beyond Russia (and, possibly, China).

There is an argument to be made that such would also encompass reasonable geographic proximity to any canonically erected parish of the Church - which would effectively afford the opportunity for the individual to spiritually participate in his or her faith according to the praxis of their Church. And, I would agree with that.

In your case, however, there is no such proximity. Were there a parish of another Byzantine Rite Church sui iuris reasonably proximate to you and you elected to worship there, it would be your choice whether to follow their praxis or not, as you would be Byzantine, but not of that Church.

Many years,

Neil