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I've been reading the posts here and wondering if we are not mixing terms that are distinct.

We are all called to live in chastity particular to our state of life. Chastity is the state of being pure in our conduct and intention. It even has aspects of being a state of personal integrity and a state of living with restraint and simplicity, especially in the area of abstention from unlawful sexual acts.

Celibacy is a state of not being married and abstaining by vow from being married.

So we're all called to be chaste whether we are married or not and a celibate person takes it one step further and vows that he/she will not only live a chaste life as a single person but also vows that at no point in the future will he/she attempt to contract marriage.

Marriage is not a free-for-all either. The Church teaches that there are sexual practices that are not permitted to the married. Most of these come from the direction of actions, activities, or acts that serve to degrade one or the other or both of the individuals involved. If I am not mistaken, that is what has been meant traditionally by "unlawful sexual intercourse or activity." So chaste living is part of every Christian vocation and every pilgrim walk that any Christian takes, while celibacy is not. And it seems that they are not interchangeable terms.

BOB

Bob,

A diocesan cleric (secular or non-religious/monastic) does not make a "vow" of celibacy as monastics do within their religious community. He makes a "promise" to his bishop. There is a difference.

A "vow," which is a type of promise, is made to God within the context of a religious community. A "promise" is made to the institutional church and is obligatory because the Church mandates it. Both are made to their respective ordinaries (superiors).

Things get more complicated when we begin talking about the "vow" of marriage. In the East, marriage is a covenant, a relationship of the man/husband and woman/wife with God. It is an unequal relationship. On one hand, we have God. On the other hand, we have his creation/humans. Vows are foreign not only to the concept of covenant - they are merely contracts between equals (husband and wife) - but also are not organic to our Crowning liturgy. [Brides aren't also handed over to their husbands during the liturgy as chattle either. Not even so in the Latin rite. Just take a look at the ritual of marriage in the Latin Church. My wife cantored for her friend's marriage years ago in the Latin Church and it was the only one she witnessed where both the bride and the groom marched down the aisle holding candles and following the priest/pastor. They wanted to follow the actual ritual that the Church prescribed and not Hollywood or some magazine (the priest didn't know what to think, but was happy because it was the first wedding that wasn't a headache filled with obnoxious people dictating hwo the church should celebrate their wedding). But this is a sidebar issue not having anything to do with definitions of celibacy, vows and promises ...]

Joe

reply:
Bingo, Sam. What I've said also applies to any Catholic or Orthodox who would condone open sodomy (clerics included). They are spiritually bankrupt if they can't even see the most basic belief that such acts are an abomination to God and are by no means to be condoned. Yet the Catholic and Orthodox Church teach as much. It is only individual leaders who have winked at such activity. May God have mercy on them. I also agree with LatinTrad's explanation.

Trusting in Christ's Light,
Ghazar

From the Associted Press

'Touching' allegations
against 'gay' priest
Episcopalians delay landmark vote on making homosexual a bishop
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A18467-2003Aug4?language=printer

If the Church of England has been "ordaining" women clergy and women "bishops", what's the problem if they ordain gay men?

Moreover, it's just another Protestant sect with invalid clergy, devoid of real priests, Bishops or valid sacramenrts even when they tend to mimic RC or Orthodox ones.

This is why I think this has very few impact among Orthodox and Catholic Christians. This Church has proved to be another Protestant sect among many, so why is this causing so big scandal?

reply:

Good question. Blame it on the liberal media, of course. Sensationalizing this helps to promote their obvious agenda of presenting sodomy as an legitimite alternative life-style.

Greetings

I guess the idea of reuniting the churches through the hierarchies has been long gone and people like myself have just been reluctant the recognize it.

It's like a shattered dream.

The rest is as you say, sensationalism in the media. They do not care what they put in front of us or how distorted the story. As long as it gets our interest and makes them some advertising revenue the media are happy. They perform no public service.

It's not that the media is liberal. The media is basically a profit-driven business. And so-called journalists are compensated by how many media outlets will carry their story.

Even the distortions of a Rush Limbaugh will get plenty of play if it is sensational enough. It's not about liberal or conservative, it's about dollars.

Even the headlines (or ESPECIALLY the headlines) are more like distorted commentary than journalism.

PAX
Michael

This is why I see it is a scandal and our business.

First from the media, they keep calling this "the Church" more than they call it by its title, the Episcopal Church.

They, the media, seems to be elevating the Episcopal Church to the level of the Catholic Church.

Second, we are all christians, and where I can see how they could make the mistake of having priestesses and female bishops, I do not see how any authentic christian could say that homosexual acts are compatable with christian teachings.

When an offical christian body, even protestants, lower the bar in such a way, it is harmful to all christians.

Just my opinion.


David

What I find disturbing about the original article is that the bishop is someone who is openly living in a relationship outside of marriage. I'd object to him as a shepherd if he were shacking up (to use my mom's generation's term) with a woman, too. An unmarried Christian should strive for physical purity and spiritual holiness in his or her state, and if he is a clergyman and doesn't, then he isn't a good shepherd and I can't believe anyone would consider having him as bishop of a Christian church. I mean, heck, don't these folks read St. Paul?

We all struggle with our various weaknesses and desires - that is the human condition. But we should not allow ourselves to be defined by those weaknesses. Being human, and being a Christian, is to rise above that and make the difficult, and correct, choice to walk in the imitation of Christ and his most holy Apostles. We all fail from time to time, but we shouldn't define ourselves by our failures or seek to say that they are alright. And really, choosing any bishop who lives in any type of openly sinful state with a man or a woman, and without shame, is not a good thing for the Christian community.

Theist Gal,
I absolutely agree that all Christians -- including the married ones! -- are called to practice chastity. However, celibacy -- the perpetual state of being unmarried -- is a special situation that the Catholic Church refers to as a charism, a special gift of the Holy Spirit. The process of discerning a priestly vocation in the Latin Church (and unfortunately, in the Eastern Churches upon which priestly celibacy is imposed) includes a man discerning whether he is indeed called to that life of celibacy. If he is not blessed with that charism, then he will not be successful and by extension God is telling him that he is not called to be a priest.

Somehow, though, all homosexual people, being required by the Church to be celibate, must have this charism; otherwise, how can they be held to be morally accountable for being unable to successfully be celibate?

Lately I have seen this claim made very vehemently on the fourm and it is wrong.

This claim is bordering on misleading and lieing.

All the Eastern Churches are free to ordain married men. They do so regularly in the "Old Country" and many have done so here.

The Holy Father has called for us to return to our traditions, just becuase our hierarchs chose not to do so does not mean that it is imposed upon them. It means that they do not wish us to fully return to our traditions.

I am sorry but I am starting to get sick of this.

Place the blame where it belongs, in our Church's hierarchy, not on something outside of it.


David

AMDG

Lemko, have you read what I wrote to you? People who are attracted to homosexual actions are bound to refrain from them because they are immoral. ALL people must refrain from such actions. It's kind of like this: Alcoholics are forbidden from getting drunk, (because it's immoral). So's everybody else.

If a homosexual wants to get married, he must see if it is possible to become re-oriented. Fr. John Harvey, who runs Courage (a group I would recommend to ANY Christian homosexual) says that about a third of gays can actually be healed of their disordered attractions. Many of these men are now married and happy.

Marriage simply CAN NOT be contracted between a man and another man (or between two women). In Mt. 19, Christ says "Have you not read that in the beginning He created them male and female? And so a man leaves his father and mother and clings to his wife, and the two become one flesh."

If a man is not fit for marriage, God will grant him the grace to be chaste. BELIEVE THAT. Amen.

In Christ's love,
LatinTrad

Jesus Christ is more powerful that any desire to engage in sexual activity. In the Troparion of the Resurrection (Tone 8) the Church proclaims: �You descended from on high, O Merciful Lord,� to deliver us from our passions�.� If we surrender ourselves to Jesus Christ He will help us to win the struggle against temptation towards sinful activity. He does not require perfection. He knows that the journey is very difficult. He knows we will occasionally fail. He only requires that we keep repenting for our failures and keep trying to live a Christian life. It is a step away from Jesus Christ to claim �I can�t do it�.

AMDG

Admin,
Thanks. That's what I've been trying to say.
LatinTrad

In the same way *everyone* is held morally accountable for their actions, Lemko - we are all called to be holy, which means following the laws of God and the teachings of Christ Jesus.

And we will all fall short, too. But that doesn't mean we are excused from trying!