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Apparently I am mistaken that the Church says that celibacy is required of homosexual people (although I doubt that a true homosexual person is valid matter for the Mystery of Crowning (aka the Sacrament of Matrimony)). In fact, the charism of celibacy may well be denied to homosexual people.

The issue of celibacy-as-charism is invoked by those who say that homosexual men are unfit (invalid matter?) for the priesthood:

AMDG

Lemko, if you were Irish like me I'd call you a thick mick.

Let's make this ABSOLUTELY clear:

1. All Christians are called to refrain from immoral actions, including homosexual acts. This applies to those who are attracted to homosexual actions as well as those who are not.

2. Refraining from homosexual actions does not in itself constitute the charism of perpetual celibacy. (Like I said before in the post that I don't think anyone read, if a homosexual can be cured of his disordered attractions, and is living a Christian life, then he makes as fine a husband FOR A WOMAN as the next guy).

3. If a homosexual cannot bring himself to marry (a woman), then he must refrain from sexual activity BECAUSE THE MARRIAGE COVENANT IS THE ONLY CONTEXT IN WHICH SEXUAL ACTIVITY BELONGS.

Is that much clear, amice?

In Jesus and Mary,
LatinTrad

Dear Theist Gal,

I hear the clanking of swords and the oiling of wheels! :rolleyes:

You say the most interesting things:

"Somehow, though, all homosexual people, being required by the Church to be celibate, must have this charism; otherwise, how can they be held to be morally accountable for being unable to successfully be celibate?"

Before you know it someone will INQUIRE for you and they might not be speaking English!

Steve

Theist Gal

Misread. Hope you laughed anyway!

Steve

Ooh, so you mistook me for Lemko, huh? I *knew* that beauty salon messed me up . . .

Dear LatinTrad,
I'm sorry you find me and my thinking to be "thick". So be it. That's not the point.

If a homosexual person remains unmarried and chaste, is that not celibacy? Or is a homosexual person by his/her nature (or condition) unworthy of (or incapable of receiving) the charism of celibacy? That is an argument made in the article I quoted, is it not?

I'm not aware the Church has ever definitively or otherwise spoken on whether a person's sexual orientation (specifically, anything other than 100% heterosexual) is immutable through therapy or whatever methods. (Of course, God can do anything He wills.) And it remains to be proven clinically that such a change through therapy is authentic and permanent. Therefore, as homosexuality of a spouse is grounds for Catholic annulment, I suspect that a homosexual person (barring the Divine transformation) in any stage of life is not valid matter for the Sacrament of Matrimony. So if marriage is not an option for such a person, what does that leave? Celibacy. In reality, not platitudes, that is the life laid out for the homosexual person who wishes to be a faithful Catholic Christian, whether they are called to it or not.

L-R,

You are correct that the Church has not definitively spoken on whether a person�s sexual orientation can be changed. Certainly there are enough individuals who have, by the grace of God, changed their orientation and become successful spouses in (heterosexual) marriage. There is no doubt that it can happen and that it can be permanent. But this is not the point. The point is that those with an inclination towards homosexuality are called to never act upon that inclination.

Is celibacy the life laid out for the homosexual person who wishes to be a faithful person? Maybe. God can change inclinations. Such a person can pray that the Lord will change their inclination (and work with the appropriate professionals to attempt to accomplish such a change). All things are possible with God. Keep in mind that heterosexual individuals who have a strong desire for sexual activity but are not married (or never marry) are also expected to live a celibate lifestyle.

But even if � for whatever reason � a change is not accomplished, people with such tendencies are expected to live a celibate lifestyle since sexual activity belongs only within marriage. Life is difficult. Some of us have more difficult lives than others. Christ can help us if we let Him help us.

Admin

How many is "enough"? One? I guess that's all you're looking for. Do you have statistics on this?

There absolutely is doubt that as a general rule it can happen and can be permanent. If you deny this, then you are reading selectively, most likely the writings of Joseph Nicolosi, the AFA, P-FOX, Exodus Intl. and the like.

Well, a desire for sexual activity is not a valid reason to marry. If you believe that homosexual persons who are hoping for a change in marriage laws are doing so for no other reason than to legitimize their sexual activities, then you are mistaken. What makes you think that homosexual couples who wish to marry do not do so out of a sense of partnership, to celebrate their love with their friends and family, and to cement their union "till death do us part"? These are, I'd guess, the reasons many or hopefully most heterosexual couples choose to marry.

I think I am lost, very confused!

What is the argument here, what is this disagreement about?

Sex outside of marriage is a sin.

Homosexual acts are sin.

These are, and have always been, taught by the Church.

I do not see how there can be a debate on this at all.

I think I am missing something here.


David

Yes, some people do doubt that God can affect a permanent change. Nevertheless, it is certainly possible. It is extremely difficult but it can be accomplished. Even if it were not, this does not justify rejecting God�s Commandments.

Is my writing selective? Definitely. I always put Scripture and other Church Teaching ahead of everything else when discussing issues of morality.

I never suggested it was.

I know that most people desiring homosexual marriages want to celebrate all of the things you mentioned, just as heterosexuals who desire to marry. The problem is that God said such relationships are always wrong. Christians can never endorse activity that God has told us is immoral.

Life for the homosexual individual is extremely difficult. Unfairly so, I think. Yet such individuals who choose to follow God must also strive to follow His Laws.

I'm not talking about God effecting such a change, and I do not deny God's power to do this. I'm talking, as I thought you were, about psychotherapy, counseling, medication, electroshock therapy, surgery, etc. -- all methods that have been employed in the past and in the present. The effectiveness and underlying ethics of these methods are disputed. I say underlying ethics because if, as the Catholic Church teaches, such an orientation is not in itself sinful, those who have no desire to attempt to change their orientation should not be compelled, coerced, or otherwise influenced to do so.

Let me introduce a narrow matter here. I personally know of two people (not parties in the same marriage) and have heard second hand of many others who received an annulment from the Catholic Church as to their marriage because one party was homosexual and the tribunal considered this an imediment to a valid marriage.

Is this a fallible and possibly highly questionable act of the tribunals? What is the Catholic Church saying when it takes such actions?

Axios

Actually, the absence of crowning has also been used as a reason for declaring a marriage invalid in the East.

This thread has been going on for quite a while with some folks asking that there be discernment, prayer and charity in maing moral decisions. Others are saying that this precept or that precept are total in themselves and that any transgression is automatically sin, no discussion.

And of course, there are scripture quotes galore to defend one side or the other. (Some game at one time had a category of 'contradictory Bible' as a category.) I thought we were supposed to read the whole thing prayerfully and then come to the understanding of the Gospel.

It's interesting. I wonder which side Jesus would come down on? This is the law and if you don't follow it, you're condemned. Or: love God and follow your decisions.

Blessings!

DrJohn,

Jesus would say I gave you my Church. The Church tells you what is right and wrong. The Church clearly said,

The Orthodox Church cleary said,

"The whole range of sexual activity outside marriage - fornication, adultery and homosexuality - are thus seen as not fitting and appropriate to the Christian way of life."

http://www.goarch.org/en/ourfaith/articles/article7101.asp

The Catholic Church cleary said,

2357. "HOMOSEXUALITY refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,[Cf. Gen 191-29 ; Rom 124-27 ; 1 Cor 6:10 ; 1 Tim 1:10 .] tradition has always declared that 'homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered.'[CDF, Persona humana 8.] They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved."

http://www.ziplink.net/cgi-bin/cgiwrap/kerygma/a.pl

Both premises are flawed. The freedom we have received in the Resurrection is the freedom to do what is moral and just. Loving God can never be used to justify or excuse doing something that God has told us is wrong. Twice each day the Church places upon our lips the words: �Blessed are You, O Lord, teach me Your Commandments. Blessed are You, O Master, teach me Your Commandments. Blessed are You, O Holy One, enlighten me with your laws.� Understanding and keeping the Commandments is very important to our salvation. Our discernment, prayer and charity are towards doing what is moral. They can never be used to justify what is immoral. Homosexual activity may not always be sinful (that depends on the state of those involved). Homosexual activity is always wrong and immoral. Transgressions may not always be sinful, but they are always wrong. God and His Church have made this clear to us and this is not negotiable.