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I have not spoken to any specifics about changing one�s orientation. Some of those you mentioned are of dubious value. Any method would certainly be less than fully effective without the healing power of Jesus Christ. Only He can affect such a change.

While the inclination towards homosexuality is intrinsically disordered it is not sinful to be a homosexual. It is only when one acts in an immoral way is there a consideration of sin. AFAIK the Church has not spoken to the specific issue of inviting people with this intrinsic disorder to make an attempt to reform their orientation.

This is a very slippery slope. From my contact with the psychiatric/psychological professional communities, there is a very big question about whether a person's emotional make-up can be changed. While individuals who undergo "therapy" (of whatever type) to change their sexual orientation and "affectional preference", can indeed "perform", the question of the true personal preference is still very much undocumented.

I have a friend who was hospitalized and 'therapized' in the early 1960s to change his gay orientation. He finally forgave his parents, but his minister (Baptist) who had a role in his hospitalization was not forgiven - nor was the church.

I would be very careful about mixing religious issues with the neuro-psychiatric ones.

Blessings!

Twenty years ago an OCA priest told me he suspected that most of the OCA hierarchy at the time was probably gay (the exceptions being Bishop Basil of Chicago and Bishop Valerian of the Romanians--but the less said of Bishop Valerian the better). That fact that no one seems to notice suggests that it really doesn't matter.

There certainly is much research that needs to be done on the subject and no one knows all the answers. To suggest, however, that a person can never change his or her inclination is to suggest that God is not all powerful. That is heading down a very slippery slope. Either way, homosexual activity is always wrong.

I think it would be more fair to suggest that affecting such a change of inclination is extremely difficult. In this case, Christians must let such individuals know that that God loves them, that we love them, that they are good, and then provide all assistance to them in leading Christian lifestyles (that is, living chastely).

This is not the 1960�s.

Back on topic for a moment if you don't mind.

Bishop-Elect Robinson was confirmed as bishop by the House of Bishops last night. You can read it at the Blog by Anhelyna.

Here is the link again.

http://www.holycross.net/daily.htm

I do not think this is the only damaging thing comming out of the Episcopal Church General Convention.

If you read though the Blog you will see. There are also two other things.

1) Rites for the Blessings of Sex outside of Marriage

2) Direct Ordination, with this they are moving to the direct ordination of priests, that is a permanent deacon will be ordained to the diaconate and a priest will be ordained directly to the priesthood, no more transitional diaconate.

This shows what happens when the majority rules the Church. Throw out all tradition and teachings and read what ever you want into scripture.

This is the road many within our own Churches wants us to take.

Now let me end with this...

Matthew 7:14
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.


With much sadness,
David

David,

I think they all have to prove their individual theses first before getting on the topics of Church tradition.

As for changing one's self/being/ontos/psyche, there is also the mystery of transfiguration/theosis/deification/metanoia. Christ/Holy Spirit can and does change us.

I'm trying to figure out what the Boston Globe has to say about all of this gay bishop election ...

Joe

One correction here - I posted the Blog - I did not write it.

However I find it has been interesting - the blog I mean. It has certainly given a good insight into the events of this Convention.

There was a lot of talk about the Bishops' decision this morning on BBC Radio - there is more to come - of this I am certain.

May God's will be done.

Anhelyna

Well, I just read some articles from the Boston Globe and they don't seem to be too alarmed. Robinson can rub men's backs all he wants. I just hope Mark isn't a jealous man.

Joe

I don't think people should be forced to go through change therapy. But on the other hand, sometimes people make such a change. Witness Ellen DeGeneress (sp)'s ex Anne H. She left Ellen, turned straight, got married, and now has kids.

Sure you can say "maybe she wasn't really gay to begin with" but that raises the question, what constitutes being gay? It's like the fundies saying once saved always saved. If someone murders, then they say, maybe he wasn't saved. Yet that defeats the whole purpose, right?

anastasios

To be fair, she claims she was mentally ill at the time.

Ghazarian,

Right you are. The fact that such abomination is countenanced in any group is the sign that that group is condemned by God...that is, unless God and the Church made a mistake in allowing Romans 1 to be written and canonized.

Dan Lauffer

Hi,
New to the Forum. I would simply like to add that I think the argument about personal abilities to change is beside the point: that belongs to the mysterious action of the Holy Spirit. I think we need to emphasize identity. It simply is not Christian identity to legitimize homosexual activity. We affirm the person as such but in no way can we be biblically, historically, traditionally, or morally coherent if we argue that we can remake Christian identity according to transient cultural tides (like the one which re: homosexual activity). After not always having been patient with very traditionally minded people, I begin to see that the discipline of tradition can be a ready guide/aid to the understanding and obedient adherence to doctrines. The parish and the Rite at large become a community of identity wherein we live out a commitment to the Gospel. Shatter the coherence of the community and you shatter the coherence of the Gospel life. My problem is finding a spot to hunker down, ie a relatively stable parish community wherein these fundamental rifts don't undermine the whole.
K

There is no doubt in my mind that like an Alcoholic someone attracted to the same sex can change. I've known too many people who have changed to doubt it. At the same time it is a secondary issue. It doesn't matter what urges a person has, it is the act that is the abomination.

One issue that has received very little attention is that issue of this Robinson fellow abandoning his family and running off with someone else. In a real Church this can never be countenanced. I guess this shows that the Episcopalians aren't a true church.

Dan Lauffer

Ken H,

Welcome. I note that you are a college professor. What do you teach? Are you able to attend a BC Church in your area? Have you found that to be a stable place? It certainly is the most stable place I have found.

Dan Lauffer

Dan Lauffer<< In a real Church this can never be countenanced. I guess this shows that the Episcopalians aren't a true church.>>

Why has it taken so long to realize that a Protestant denomination, such as the (P)ECUSA, is *not* a true Church? This is what comes of dishonest ecumenism. *IF* the RCC ever reunites with the Anglicans, that means you'd have to take the Anglicans where they are, and they are *VERY* inclusive (female bishops, etc.), the hallmark of Anglicanism.

OrthodoxEast