www.byzcath.org Forums News & Events Church News Gay Bishop-Elect

Hi,
I am a history professor. I teach British and American history, though I have a subfield in Nazi Germany and in the Communist holocaust each. My family and I do attend a BC parish, but it is nearly 80 miles from our home. It is a delightful place and we are very blessed to have access to the Liturgy. I guess the "hunker down spot" comment was more directed to our sad lack of a day to day community. Most of the RC's we know don't share our notion of a Christian counter-culture. Also, we are homeschoolers, and there are hardly any Catholic homeschoolers near us (closer than 50 miles). So, while we do have the Liturgy, our parish cannot really be our community because of distance and we haven't been able to find people locally. One note, the couple of families we have found who shared our basic view on Christian family and Christian formation of children were Southern Baptists: we have had daughters of these families come in to help my wife and both of those girls were beautiful "fits" with our home lifestyle. Sad to say, we haven't seen too many Catholics that fit so well.
K

AMDG
OrthodoxEast,
I agree with you about the ecumenism being very wrong-headed. If the Catholic Church were to re-admit the Anglicans en masse, the process would have to include:

1) The elimination of all female "priests" and other female "clergy."
2) The administration of VALID Holy Orders to their other "priests."
3) The administration of valid Confirmation/Chrismation to all Anglicans.
4) Some kind of declaration on the part of the authorities and clerics being re-admitted that they will no longer give approval to homosexual "unions," contraception, abortion, etc.
And many other things.

It all goes to show how much scouring out needs to be done to a body that broke from the Universal Church.

I deeply hope for the reconciliation of all Anglicans to the Church founded by Christ, but I think we have a long way to go.

In Jesus and Mary,
Lt

Ken,

Your observations prompt me to start a new thread or two: One on the need for new parishes and a second on why RC's and BC's don't always find common ground.

I am a Financial Planner and a College Professor. I teach Comparative Religions and Theology. I also teach Basic Literacy. I planning to cut back on some of my interests. :rolleyes:

Dan Lauffer

Dan Lauffer wrote: <<<Right you are. The fact that such abomination is countenanced in any group is the sign that that group is condemned by God...that is, unless God and the Church made a mistake in allowing Romans 1 to be written and canonized...>>>

Just playing Devil's advocate here- how does this same thinking fit in with the Catholic scandal/coverups/actively gay priests?
If the laity disagrees do you suggest they stay with them or break from them?
Thanks,
Sam

Sam,

You make a good point except for one difference.

"Just playing Devil's advocate here- how does this same thinking fit in with the Catholic scandal/coverups/actively gay priests?
If the laity disagrees do you suggest they stay with them or break from them?"

While I certainly agree that bishops who countenance this stuff should be defrocked and the priests who do them need to perform their priestly functions behind prison bars the Church does not officially consecrate openly gay men to the priesthood. It may be a finer line than we should draw in the perfect world but I do think their is a difference between laxity of discipline as reprehensible and destructive as it is and heresy.

Dan Lauffer

AMDG
Sorry, prof. Lauffer, to respond for ya . . .

Sam, the Catholic Church has ALWAYS stood by the teaching of Christ in her official pronouncements. She is filled with sinners. Bad, but not the same thing.

The schismatic, heretical Anglican Church has abandoned Apostolic succession and officially countenanced moral evil, including homosexuality, abortion, and contraception. That is different.

LatinTrad

I'm not sure what is meant, exactly, by a Christian counter-culture. Surely, through much of the history of the church, Christians stood out against the backdrop of, and persecution of, decidedly pagan society. As in Rome before the great conversion of Constantine.

We Christians have to be out in the world, with all its evils and temptations, unless we are true contemplative, cloistered monastics (who serve a great purpose, IMHO).

Some of my circle of friends-who-are-just-like-family-to-me have had opinions and done things that I don't like or agree with - and a few have tended toward agnosticism and/or rejection of religion. A couple of them were Catholic to begin with, a couple of them were Methodist and a couple were I-don't-know-what before I knew them. And a few of the same circle of friends were at the other extreme - religious people who live, to my own observation, quite pious lives and have been pretty contant in that. What I've noticed is that the couple of pious ones I know, esp. one of my more devout Orthodox friends, have had a very real and positive effect on the less pious of our group by simple example and by simply being there.

Over recent years, as we hit the age of marriage and having kiddies, I've noticed that friends I honestly never expected to get married in a church, attend Mass or Liturgy in a church, get Confirmed (a few of my RC friends were never Confirmed as teens, because they chose not to be), or get their children properly Baptised are now doing these things with absolute joy. I've noticed trappings of religion popping up in homes of these friends where I never expected to see them.

>>>The schismatic, heretical Anglican Church has abandoned Apostolic succession and officially countenanced moral evil, including homosexuality<<<

I know this sounds as if I am single-minded here, but gay clergy is the topic.
My question: Is there REALLY a difference between officially and unofficially allowing this activity? Perhaps "officially" is just being more honest?
Sam

When Annie_SFO makes her very fine point about a "levening" influence, I don't necessarily disagree. I'm not into total separatism. Still, my wife and I pray at home, we homeschool, we don't use TV, stuff like that; all of which we see as connected to our Christian lives. We do work day jobs, have non-Catholic (and non-Christian) loved ones, interact regularly with others, etc. It's just that I think Christian could all do with at least just a little dash of Amish and it's hard to find such people in the RC parishes I've been in. In fact, so many of them take the "leaven the world" argument to heart that the it seems the world ends up leavening them.
K

AMDG
Ken H, you are right. There are some more bubble-like RC communities, however. I like 'em.

Sam, there is a huge difference between allowing it officially and not allowing it officially. And no, it is not "honest" to allow it officially.

The fact of the matter is that the Catholic Church DOES NOT COUNTENANCE homosexual actions. The fact that Catholic clerics may engage in them means nothing more than that they are sinners who need prayer. We all sin. We all need prayer. Some sins are worse than others. But the true Church can NEVER APPROVE of evil just because people are doing it. That is what the Anglican Church does. If people start doing something evil, the Anglicans approve it. You name it. Abortion, contraception, deviant sexual behavior--they're even coming out with a "blessing" for fornication now. This is heresy.

The Catholic Church, on the other hand, condemns sin even while finding it within her ranks.

I hope this clarifies the issue a little bit.

In Jesus and Mary,
LatinTrad

//I don't think people should be forced to go through change therapy. But on the other hand, sometimes people make such a change. Witness Ellen DeGeneress (sp)'s ex Anne H. She left Ellen, turned straight, got married, and now has kids.//

Anne Heche also had an abusive life with her father, who was a Baptist minister during the day and a gay bar hopper during the night. She grew up witnessing this as well as his death from AIDS. Her affiliation with lesbians might have been akin to women marrying alcoholics after growing up with an alcoholic father and/or mother. Sympathy/identity? or whatever the psychs call it these days.

Things can really get screwed up when the words from Ephesians gets dumped to live like those mentioned in Romans 1.

I pitty cleric Robinson's ex-wife, who has to witness her divorced husband become a bishop while having a male lover.

Joe

LT, I believe the word you're looking for there is hiding.

AMDG

So do you think homosexual acts are sinful or not??????????

LR,

Absolutely.

AMDG

Distinguish between "the Catholic Church" and "some deviant clerics."

The Church's teaching on these issues is clear and immutable. Clerics who flout it have more to fear than anyone else.

LT