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>>>LT, I believe the word you're looking for there is hiding.<<<

LOLOLOL!


>>>The Church's teaching on these issues is clear and immutable. Clerics who flout it have more to fear than anyone else.<<<

I believe that Bishops/Cardinals/Popes who cover for them and allow them to continue are in the same boat. I believe it is they who have done the most harm to the Church. "Where the bishop is so is the Church" bears a LOT of responsibility.
Sam

For a victim of sexual abuse by a priest with knowledge and inaction by his superiors, I think the distinction is not very meaningful.

Axios

The Orthodox seem to have less scouring in store for us to reconcile with the Catholics. I assume we would only have to close the door on deaconesses, leave the World & National Council of Churches and have Humanae Vitae imposed on us.

Axios

I agree with Axios. No one expects perfection from anyone on everything but these events have been terrifying. One can understand that perpetuators need to be offered the chance to repent, change their lives and be redeemed and forgiven. Nothing, however, justifies not removing perpetuators from positions in which they have access to the innocent. The Church has much to repent for. It has failed the innocent and caused much harm through its deliberate inaction.

First and foremost, our Holy Father, Leo XIII, declared Anglican orders to be "null and totally void."

So: they can't "come back" with clergy. They are about as "church" as the YMCA.

However, as a theology seminarian whose campus was shared with Episcopals, I think they are really wonderful Christians. If one looks at the history of the Christian communities in the U.S., it is the Episcopalians who have consistently opened their facilities to Christian communities of the "minority status" to help them establish their parishes and fostered their growth. Should we just dismiss this as some time of 'kismet'? Had the Slavic/Ruthenian clergy sought assistance from the Episcopals rather than from the RCs, the OCA probably wouldn't exist. And Archbishop Ireland wouldn't be playfully designated the "founder of the Orthodoxy" in the U.S.

Despite their status as a "religious organization" as the ROCOR community designates the RCs, we Christians would be loathe to ignore what is happening in the Episcopal Church.

They are good and wonderful people. And generous too, to a fault!! If this group of baptized Christians is confronting an issue, we Cathodox folks have got to recognize it as an issue and have got to approach it in a theolgocially valid way. And not just dismiss them as some church-like fraternity or social organization.

Blessings!

Humanae Vitae [vatican.va] is an incredibly wonderful document. I have no doubt that if the Orthodox will someday embrace it. I believe that they would have already embraced it if more Orthodox had been free to concentrate on the issues it addresses instead of having to just worry about day-to- day survival under oppressive regimes.

DrJohn,

For the first time I agree with your last post 100%.

I agree that Episcopalians are wonderful people and generous to a fault. They have erred in their rejection of Holy Scripture by what they have done. We should not dismiss them. We need to pray for them, that they see their error and recant, and that they eventually return to the fold of the True Church.

Brother Johan, thank you for your kind words. I suspect that both you and I are trying to find the good in anyone. Including our Episcopal brethren.


Our Adminstrator raises again his objection that some things are, "ipso facto" , 'sinful' in themselves.

I don't think that this is good theology. Why? Because this perspective ignores both the fact that human beings are living in a mutable world where resultant good and evil depends directly upon the circumstances ("thou shalt not kill" is eternal until Hitler's armies come down your street), and also: God's will is immutable, which is clearly theologically indefensible since while God is 'immutable', the second part of the equation "human beings" is - by nature - mutable, thereby destroying the symmetry of the proposition.

But it makes the proposition sound like valid "God's Will". And the non-reflective will say: "Oh yeah!!! God said it and so that's it." This is deceit, facilitated by the knowledge and desire of the faithful that they wish to be compliant - regardless of the source of the mandate - despite the fact that they are obligated by the Gospel to discern what is loving of God and loving of one's neighbor. It is the moral equivalent of "I'm following orders".

This is not Christian. It's fearful conformism. Enforced by supposed "mandates" from God and 'tradition'. How sad.

God gave us brains and perspicacity. We need to utilize them, lest we be guilty of not using the gifts that God gave us.

Blessings!

I have never stated that some things are ��ipso facto�, 'sinful' in themselves.� I have been very clear and consistent in stating that there are certain actions that are always objectively wrong and that the level of sinfulness involved is directly dependent upon the state of the individual at the time the offense was committed. Wrongness and sinfulness are two different things. Dr. John does me a discourtesy by claiming that I have stated something I have never stated.

What I have presented is very sound theology. It is sound from both the Catholic and Orthodox perspectives. There are certain things that are always morally wrong. What is right and just is readily knowable, even by those who are not familiar with the Scriptures or the Commandments. Jesus Christ confirmed this and the Church has consistently affirmed this. When we make a decision that is contrary to the Scriptures and the Commandments our decision is faulty. God�s revelation is never faulty. Following God and living by his Commandments are extremely difficult. I know that I fail on a daily basis. But God knows what is right and loves us so much that He has given us Commandments to live by. Our decision making process is flawed. God�s is always perfect.

Are there decisions to be made in how the Commandments are applied in the world? Of course. God gave us a brain and the capacity to use it. If we conform our lives to Him and live by His Commandments He will lead us to do what is moral and just. He will never lead us to do what is immoral and unjust.

What about the tough questions were there seems to be only choosing the less of two wrongs? Do you kill to save yourself or your loved ones when Hitler�s armies are coming down the street? Possibly. The killing is still objectively wrong but there are times when it can be the lesser of two evils. Do you steal food to feed your starving family? Possibly. The stealing is still objectively wrong but the greater evil would be to let your family starve to death. Do you steal to feed your starving family if your stealing means that the person you stole the food from dies? There are lots of questions that have difficult answers.

The issue under discussion in this thread, however, is sexual morality. The problem with applying Dr. John�s theological examples to sexual morality is that no one ever died from not having sex. No one has ever died from obeying God�s laws regarding sexual activity. The only way Dr. John�s comparison to Hitler�s armies coming down the street could possibly be relevant is if someone was holding a gun to your head telling you to commit an immoral sexual act. One could choose a martyr�s death over the immoral act. One could also choose the immoral act to preserve one�s own life (and possibly the lives of others). The Spirit can and does lead the individual in such tough cases. One, however, can never turn to the tough cases to justify a free choosing of immorality over morality. When we speak of sexual activity outside marriage one can always state that such activity is objectively wrong. One cannot always state that such activity is always sinful. The level of sinfulness, if any, is dependent upon the individual and the situation. Even if one can legitimately conclude that there is no sinfulness involved in a particular immoral activity one can never use this to justify the immoral activity or a continued choosing of that immoral activity.

Freely choosing to obey God�s laws should never be confused with �following orders� or �fearful conformism�. We are to strive to obey God�s laws because they are objectively good and the best path for a Christian. Our conformity must always be to Christ.

> The actions taken by the New Hampshire Episcopalians are
> an affront to
> Christians everywhere. I am just thankful that the
> church's founder, Henry VIII, and
> his wife Catherine of Aragon, and his wife Anne Boleyn,
> and his wife Jane
> Seymour, and his wife Anne of Cleves, and his wife
> Katherine Howard, and his
> wife Catherine Parr are no longer here to suffer through
> this assault on
> traditional Christian marriage.
>
Myron B. Liptzin, M.D.

Thank you Monk Silouan!

Point well made and well taken!

Steve

"You are My friends if you do whatever I command you." (John 15:14)

Sounds like a mandate to me. In fact, it's written in the "indicative" mood, which means, it's basically a statement of fact, as in, no arguments. It reminds me of times when Jesus says, "Amen, Amen, (or 'Truly, truly') I say to you..." which means essentially, this is unarguable truth. Our Lord Jesus Christ gave us many mandates.

Priest Thomas

The possibility that Swearing by the name of the Theotokos has brought about the falling away from the faith of the majority of the English people?

I remember many years ago hearing an awesome sermon on the Most Holy Mother of God and the priestmonk giving it attibuted one word with the entire English Church loosing the faith and going into schism. That word was: 'bloody' or swearing 'by Our Lady' (which is what 'bloody' means!) For many many centuries the English people had used this form of 'swearing by Our Lady' and I think what we see today (sadly) is the falling away of most of the English people from the apostolic faith just because they have sinned against her---who is our tainted nature's solitary boast.

Most Holy Mother of God save us!

+Father Archimandrite Gregory

Well spoken.