www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Conversion/Transfer: Orthodox - Eastern Catholic

Dear Brothers and Sisters,

Is this the proper forum for one seeking advice as he deliberates whether his proper place is in the Orthodox or Eastern Catholic Church? Obviously there are many facets to this question to consider, many of which can not be addressed in a forum like this but there could be some benefits to sharing what one is thinking and praying about within the context of a discussion forum such as this. Many people here, I'm sure, have thought and contemplated simliar things and perhaps have experience and advice they can share. Thanks, first of all, for letting me know whether this is correct forum for such a discussion. God bless you for your help.

-Penitent

Shlomo Penitent,

Many members here are quite knowledgeable. And the questions that you have can be answered here.

One question that I have for you, is are you looking only at the Byzantine form of Eastern Christianity? Because I will point out that not only is Eastern Christianity expressed in the Holy Byzantine Liturgical usages, but also in the Antiochene-Edessan Holy Tradition (of which I belong to and my Church does not have an Orthodox Counterpart - I'm a Maronite), the Alexandrian Holy Tradition, and the Armenian Holy Tradition.

With this group you will get a well rounded course in Eastern Christianity.

Fush BaShlomo,
Yuhannon

Dear Yuhannon,

Thanks for your reply. I am an Orthodox Christian of a particular Church which I prefer not to name. I am a long time student of theology and am nearing Holy Ordination. I'm looking not so much for a "course" on the Eastern Churches as I am some practical advice on how to discern the Lord's will as I seek to serve the Church I love while balancing this with things in my Church which conflict with my conscience. I know the Byzantine Forum is very good and just wanted to make sure the "Faith and Worship" forum was the right place to direct my questions. Thanks for taking the time to reply.

Welcome to the forum, Penitent, and thanks for the kind words about it. Yes, I think I would agree that this particular forum is a good place in which to have your questions addressed.

As regards the concerns in your own mind, to which you alude in your post, I'd offer this thought from a post that I recently made to another thread on this forum.



Many years,

Neil

Well, the discussions here will help you discern what you're looking for with better clarity. More often than not, I'd say that we don't make your decisions for you, nor do we throw options at you, but I'd say this is a good place to discuss your convictions and theological leanings and see where you're meant to be. This of course, is not solely an academic exercise. I trust that you'll know better than I would. Nevertheless, welcome!

I admit I'm surprised one can get as far as seminary right up to ordination time and not be sure which church one should belong to but it happens; an online acquaintance was an exam away from being approved for ordination as an ELCA Lutheran pastor when he dropped out and became a lay Episcopalian which he still is.

What it all comes down to here is what you believe about the papacy: divinely instituted office that channels the church's infallibility and by God has been given universal jurisdiction or man-made rank of the infallible church's divinely instituted episcopate for the good order of the church?

Dear Brethren,

Thank you for your replies (especially Neil's beautiful quote).

I've lived and experienced enough in my short life that I'm at a point where nothing really "surprises" me. Every man is capable (with the acceptance of God's Divine Energy) of the greatest works of good and also (with the rejection of God) of the most horrifying evils and everything in between these. Our Churches are very close, in many ways almost identical.
When a man's decision affects not only himself but also his children for generations to come, one must make this decision with fear and trepidation. Being willing to walk away from the status of rank and Holy Orders, if this is God's will, I think is a prerequisite for being a servant of God. But so also is being willing to put up with the most intolerable of circumstances in order to be faithful to calling you have received.
Discerning God's will in all of this is my aim and often talking with others can be very helpful. I've visited this forum enough to know there are some holy and wise souls here who may have time to weigh in on the questions I pose. Of course this is not my only source of guidance. So here goes the short version:

I was a convert to Catholicism (from Protestantism) who eventually joined the Eastern Catholic Church of my ethnic background. My parish was the only one of its particular Church/rite in my area. After being a member there for numerous years, I became frustrated by the lack of interest in our historic Tradition and by what I felt was intransigence of (at least) my pastor in returning to our historic Tradition. Things like the removal of the filioque from our Creed (which had been authorized by our Eastern Catholic Holy Synod) and the allowance of our children to receive Holy Communion from infancy (which had been recommended by Rome) were of no interest. After I repeatedly beseeched him about this I finally felt that perhaps I was being unfair. I reasoned that if I felt these things were the correct way, perhaps I belonged in the Church which practiced them. This is where I went.
My Orthodox pastor, who was actually and old friend, was quick to use me in the parish. Now I'm completing my diaconal preparation and have been told by my pastor to plan to be ordained deacon in 2011. Actually from a ministerial perspective all of this is fulfilling. I love our Divine Services of which I have spent the last six years of my life in intensive study. To me these are the most beautiful in all of the Church. I love our entire Holy Tradition and being able to serve in anyway I can. But I also have some concerns. My concern is primarily for my family. My parish has some alarming practices that I'm not sure my future descendents will be able to overcome. Here are some examples:

1. Sunday School instead of Divine Liturgy:
One of the most alarming practices is that children from elementary to high school do not attend Divine Liturgy. Rather, they attend Sunday school instead. Occasionally (perhaps once a month) they are escorted into Church by their teacher during the Divine Liturgy for about a half of hour and then are escorted out (at random times). I think the missing of Sunday services is very wrong and a violation of the 4th Commandment. I explained this to my pastor who seemed sympathetic but the parish council in our Churches seem to have more power than the pastor. Either this or else he doesn't think it is important enough to override them. We keep our kids with us during Divine Liturgy and because of this have received some very hostile reactions from those associated with the Sunday school program. While we are glad to endure this maltreatment for the truth, I fear some day my descendents may give in, conform and lose the truth that the Eucharistic Liturgy is where the faithful belong together on the Lord's Day.

2. This leads to another concern I have: Our clergy seem to have no real power to authoritatively teach the truth but are rather compelled to tell the people what they want to hear for fear of losing their position as pastors. Parishes have the power to basically vote a priest out as pastor.

3. Our Church has lost the practice of the sacrament of private Confession. We have a public form of the sacrament but the private form is in disuse and not at all encouraged. I've talked about re-instituing the private form of confession in our parish with my pastor but he had no expressed interest in pursuing this.

4. Moral issues: Our Church has no real position for or against abortion or euthanasia. Although I would argue our teaching against these evils is enshrined in historic teaching and canons but this is not taught from pulpit.

I know every Church and parish has problems and are not perfect (or yet perfected). But there are also positive things I recognize about being in the Catholic Communion. Just being in Communion with the other Churches is something I cherish (and miss). Having a visible formal reference for doctrine (the Catechism of the Catholic Church) and law (the Eastern Code of Canons) help to address the above mentioned difficulties I cited.

So these are some of the questions I'm grappling with. I'll stop there and see if anyone has thoughts on any of this.

God bless you for your interest and advice,

-Penitent

Dear Penitent,



Re: #1. Having been brought up in Orthodox Sunday School myself, I don't think that it is a terrible thing. I learned quite alot in those Sunday catechism classes, and when I was at Liturgy, I found it a bit hard as a child to be focused (mind was wandering everywhere)...When I taught Sunday School later on as an adult, I was aware of this, so I had the older children I was teaching follow along in the book when we attended Liturgy...I still saw some of their minds wandering.



Re: #2. This is true in some priests, unfortunately, but not all. A priest, being married with children, although a minister of God and church, is also an employee, and as such, is somewhat between a rock and a hard place if he is going to have to provide for his family. Priests *do ofcourse* teach the truth (!), but not always boldly from the pulpit because of this reality--Again, this depends on the priest and also the particular congregation. If the congregation is not a particularly devout one, (some only go to church as a social/ethnic event), that probably means that the trustees who have the power and ability to make trouble for a priest, will probably also not be devout persons... Therefore, they need to be taught the truths of the faith by the priest in a somewhat more diplomatic and general manner...We need to understand that if we support the position of having a married clergy, we will need to forgive them of this.



Re: #3. I guess that depends on the parish, priest and jurisdiction. My parish is Greek Orthodox and the priest has always pushed private confession.



Re: #4. It is the Orthodox approach to be pastoral regarding these sins rather than outspoken. That does not go to say that there is no position. There is a position, and that is the same as the one of the Catholic Church...Not being outspoken is just how Orthodoxy, in the countries it served, and often suffered under persecution, evolved. Also, Orthodoxy is much more monastic/ascetic in ethos than any other Christian faith tradition.

I am not advocating one tradition over another. Ultimately, one must find the spiritual home that feels comfortable (and comfort comes in many ways) as well as helping one get closer to God. I just thought it fair, as a cradle Orthodox, to make a few comments.

Be well, and wishing you a blessed remainder of Holy Lent.

In Christ,
Alice

1. Historically that's not unusual. Back when the Orthodox and the Episcopalians were friendly, St Nicholas Russian Orthodox Church here would send the kids to Sunday School in English at Christ Church while the adults heard the Slavonic Divine Liturgy back at St Nick's. (So Christ Church claims.)

2. That has its good and bad sides. I like easygoing ethnic places.

3. Is it a Greek church?

4. I would have said contraception. Orthodoxy is clearly against abortion and euthanasia. By 'our church' you must mean 'our parish'. What Alice said.

Dear Alice,

Thank you for your helpful reply:

Re: #1. Everyone's mind wanders in the Liturgy. The good that comes from having our kids brought up in the Liturgy is that they learn the Divine Liturgy over the years and it becomes less and less foreign to them. Divine Worship becomes a normal part of their lives. Instead we teach our kids and people that Divine Worship is optional. If we do this we should not be surprised that many of them continue to believe and live like this the rest of their lives. The weekly worship of God, I do not believe, is optional. But it really helps to know this practice is present elsewhere. I didn't know other Orthodox parishes practiced this too. Thank you.

Re: #2. Your point is well taken, but our clergy have to be free to preach the Gospel, in season and out of season. Don't they?

Re: #3. Its been my experience that confession of personal sins is essential to our spiritual life.

Re: #4. Again, point well taken. What you write is certainly true and must be taken into consideration. But don't you think a Church must provide the answer to those who ask whether a certain act is moral or immoral? To my mind there must be a point of reference beyond subjective pastoral advice. There must be an authoritative voice / document that the faithful can access to know what is the truth. Am I wrong to think this?

p.s. Young Fogey: I'd rather not identify my Church. It helps me to be open by not giving my personal info. Thanks for your understanding on this.

Thanks very much for your advice.
Penitent.

Dear Penitent,

I really don't think that there is much to debate any further, but suffice it to say that in *any* church, one can find things that one does not like...*ALOT* of that depends on the particular priest, and/or the jurisdiction.

Try other parishes in your jurisdiction and in others. You may find a parish, priest, and a spiritual climate that suits you better. That is what I did ten years ago...You owe it to your spiritual life. We are not bound to any one parish.

If no parish suits you, many Orthodox seek their spiritual manna from monasteries, and while still attending Sunday Liturgy at their parishes (since the monasteries are usually a bit of a drive for most people), they have spiritual Elders who hear their confessions and give them spiritual counsel.
However, it is important to know that they are considered 'strict' and are certainly not the *Orthodoxy-lite* which parishes can sometimes be, so they are not for everyone-- but they have been just the answer which many disappointed faithful seek.

There are many options. Try to explore them.

All the best...
In Christ,
Alice

In reading what you are describing, I am mortified that a parish like this exists at all. This smacks of the Orthodox-Lite type parish that Alice mentioned. I would have walked from such a parasynagogue long ago. I can only speak in regards to the Russian Church. In regards to your concerns, in the Russian Church:

1. Nothing, and I mean NOTHING comes before Divine services. Sunday school, before, after Liturgy, Saturday afternoon before Vigil, anytime OTHER than during Divine Services.

2. The bylaws of ROCOR clearly state that the president of the council, and ultimate authority in the parish is the priest, backed by the full authority of the bishop. I've run across such congregationalist parishes as you have described amongst the coal patch Orthodox in Pennsylvania, and they are Protestant in ethos rather than Orthodox.

3. Unless your priest is St John of Kronstadt, I find this bizzare beyond belief. This would not be tolerated by any Orthodox bishop that I know. One does not approach the Holy Gifts unless one has been one on one with Father the night before or in the morning before Liturgy commences.

4. I hear stands against the ills of modern society almost every sermon. What does your priest homilize about? My Orthodox periodicals, Pravoslavnie Rus, etc are filled with such homilies, as well as the numerous Orthodox websites and blogs.

When you mention that you miss being in communion with other Churches, how is that lacking in the Orthodox? I am in communion with the Greek, Serbian Romanian, Czechoslovak, Polish, Bulgarian, Antiochian, Alexandrian, Jerusalem and Albanian Churches, and I am sure that there are some that I missed. There are western rite Orthodox that I share a common cup with as well.

I suggest that you find a good spiritual father, not your priest friend. Go to a monastery if you are able, and find a good director. You might also want to speak to your bishop related to your concerns. Your parish seems to be an anomaly, and your bishop may need to intervene.

My prayers are with you, and if you need names or pointed to good sources, feel free to pm me.

ALexandr

Prayers for you, Penitent.
Your earlier post brought tears to my eyes, especially as you mentioned nearing Holy Ordination. I'm glad you have a resource here in the Forum to assist you in some way with this painful challenge.

I'm still a neophyte in the East after barely a couple of years, and lack the experience of other wiser folks here. But as one who has lived in the Latin Church for 20+ years the numbered points your bring up seem more to do with individual parishes/priests than with whichever Orthodox Church in a larger sense you belong to. I seems others are indicating the same thing. You also ran into problems in the Latin Church over lack of orthodoxy to that patrimony.

In reference to your quote I included here I wonder if you were attracted to the structure in the Latin Church when you came to it from a Protestant communion. We do indeed have the CCC and the CCEO. I think the Eastern Churches live in a sometimes uneasy relationship with these. (Not to say that many Latin priests, deacons and laity don't also have a very uneasy relationship with the CCC and CIC but for quite different reasons.) Is that kind of authority important to you? It seems like that would be a somewhat different kind of issue, if that is the case, than the concerns in the numbered issues you shared.

Like Alice, I'd encourage you to look at "other parishes in your jurisdiction and in others", and like ALexandr I'd encourage you to look for "a good spiritual father, not your priest friend". I know there are among bi-ritual Catholic priests those who have a very open and sincere understanding of Orthodoxy, in addition to their understanding of the Latin and EC Churches, and could be good for such spiritual direction. I suspect there are those in Orthodoxy, maybe priests active in ecumenical gatherings such as the Orientale Lumen Conferences [olconference.com] and the Society of Saint John Chrysostom [ssjc.org] who likewise could help guide you without unhelpful stereotypes about Catholics.

There is still some time before 2011. Time to tease out the difference between pre-wedding jitters and real incompatibility.

Hello Penitent and welcome to the Forum,

What I've seen in a Greek Orthodox parish regarding your first concern is the following:

Orthros starts at 9:00 and ends at 9:30. At 9:00 the only people in the church are the priest and two cantors, by 9:30 there are a dozen or two and a steady in-flow.

At 9:30, Children have their Sunday School session and the Adults have "Orthodox Study", which is basically the Homily given without the children present.

At 10:00 Divine Liturgy starts, the children are brought back into the church at that time and they participate as much as they can. For instance, readings are in both Greek and English and the English readers are children from elementary or middle school ages. Children also lead the congregation in the English-language parts whenever a lay leader (cantor) is appropriate.

No homily is given after the Gospel during the Divine Liturgy.

I think this approach makes a lot of pastoral sense: Adults and children receive age-appropriate formation and everybody participates in the Divine Liturgy. "A lot of pastoral sense" is one of the very few things that are able calm down the liturgist I carry within me.

Maybe you can suggest something like that to your pastor? Maybe he'd be willing to try it out a few times and see how it works for your parish?

Let us pray for each other, that God lead us ever closer to Himeslf and that we are docile to His guidance.

Shalom,
Memo

Dear Alice,
I don't want to debate either. What you suggested in your last message really resonated with me. Thank you for that very good and helpful suggestion. There is something there which I can really build on.

Dear Alexander,
What you wrote was very helpful too. Just as I found it helpful to know my parish is not alone in the Orthodox world in what it is doing (not that this at all justifies it), it was equally helpful to hear that other Orthodox see this as very problematic. I think you hit it right on the head, my parish currently is very "Protestant in ethos rather than Orthodox." Alice's suggestion of ways to supplement this I think are a good ideas for my family's own spiritual health, as I continue to work for change in our parish and recovery of our historic Tradition (which is slowly taking place). Thank you most of all for the advice about finding a good spiritual father/director and possibly contacting the bishop. You are right about anomalies in my parish. Thanks for your prayers and offer for private messaging (which I'll keep in mind for the future).

Dear "like the thief"
Thanks for your words about my message which I meant sincerely. You very perceptively noted what I have wondered about myself, i.e. perhaps some of this (or all of it) is a case of cold feet, or as you put it "pre-wedding jitters." I don't know perhaps this is a common experience for those preparing for ministry (at a certain point in their journey). I will pray and touch base with another spiritual father to help me see and ensure it is just this not real issues of incompatibility. Thank you for all of the wise advice packed in your last message.

Lastly Memo,
I really like your suggestion. In honesty, I think I do have my pastor's ear on this. He has been working the kids into the Divine Liturgy more often and for bigger durations (especially the older kids). Perhaps I need to be more patient and through prayer and continued teaching, to trust God to bring about the change in time.

To everyone I'd like to close for now by stating the following:

I love the Church I serve and am willing (only by the grace of God) to lay down my life for the truth she maintains. It can only help to reach out a little for spiritual direction and support (whether that be from a monastery, another parish, this forum or all of the above). In the meantime I will continue to pray, discern and prepare for God's will and calling on my life.
God bless you all for taking the time, you won't believe how much these few messages have helped me sort through some of the emotions and concerns I'm experiencing. Some times it just helps to put your feelings down in words and bounce them off a few other people to help you realize what is really in your heart and you really believe God is calling you to. Thank you all for allowing me to do this with you. You perform a real ministry to others by what you do here. God bless you!

Your penitent brother in Christ our Lord