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I wish to become an Eastern Orthodox. My wife is a Roman Catholic and my father was a Byzantine Catholic. I have bounced from one church to another, mostly Protestant. I can no longer deny what I need to do. Are there any churches that will assist you in this? I know this is a delicate topic, but I cannot deny my conscience any more. I have been church jumping because I know I do not believe in the Western approach and beliefs concerning traditional and apostolic Christianity. I believe that the Pope is the "first among equals" only; I believe in the original Creed before the Filoque; I do not have a belief in Purgagory; what can I do? Please, some good advice. I have been talked out of doing what I needed and wanted to do by most of the Body of Christ. Are there any churches that allow intercommunion in this situation?

Walter

Walter,

First of all, I think if it were that straightforward, you wouldn't be here asking for advice.

Not sure what you mean here, since any Orthodox church would be expected to assist if you're interested in converting, and I would assume there's one or more that you've been attending somewhat regularly.

Can you be more specific?

That's interesting, because most Orthodox believe he was the first among equals until he rejected Orthodoxy and became a heretic.

Which is close to, if not the same as, what many Eastern Catholics believe.

You're not likely to find a canonical Orthodox Church outside the Middle East that would allow intercommunion.

Does your wife want to become an Eastern Orthodox as well? I've always felt that it's the best case scenerio when a married couple worships together. God bless you in your search. (PS I truly love the Byzantine Catholic faith, especially the older I get.)

I would encourage you to look at books by Jim Likoudis and "The Russian Church and the Papacy" by Vladimir Soloviev.

I would advise you to stay away from both.

I'll second that as well.

In this situation, I'd recommend talking to a priest or two in your area. If your current pastor is a Catholic priest, talk to him about your concerns. My experience is that they usually are very understanding and respectful of the conscience of people who travel East. (In re-reading your message, I understand that you are actually Protestant. So, a Catholic priest may not be helpful to you unless you know one through your wife's parish.) Also, talk with a priest at one of the Orthodox parishes in your area. I know Fr. Andrew Barakos at Assumption Greek Orthodox in Scottsdale (he actually received me into the Church many years ago), and he would be a very good person to talk with about your situation. I think you should get the answers you need and some helpful advice from the local clergy. I've also sent you a PM. Blessings on your spiritual journey!

Oh my! Soloviev's teachings have been condemned as heretical, and Likoudis is an excellent "Dummies Guide to Polemics". Stay clear of both of them. The only way to look at these books is to look at them going up in flames!

Alexandr

Stuart and Alexandr are among those posters here with whom I frequently disagree--and often quite vehemently. However, on their advice to avoid Likoudis and Soloviev, I'm in agreement.

Ryan

Hi Walter,

Christos Voskrese!

I am not anywhere near as learned as the people above who have already posted - especially in matters of the Church. What I would suggest however is this: you have received some wonderful advice here - embrace it. Whatever you do, do it in liaison with your current Pastor, and under the mentoring of a new clergyman from your potential new Church. It would be essential that you speak with your wife about what you are doing, and why. If she isn't joining you, explain why you feel you must undertake this journey. Share your joy in your faith with her.

If your wife remains a RC (I assume this is possible as she is RC and you are from what I sense; currently Protestant), perhaps finding an Eastern Church within the Catholic family (BC) could be benefitial. In all senses you would be 'Orthodox' but still a member of the same 'Church' as your spouse - that may make her adjustment easier. A married couple who share a religion (albeit different rites) is nothing too challening However couples in different Churches often experience added problems (though, many on here would prove otherwise I am sure - and I would be glad to see it so!).

Finding apotential Church would surround the right Priest more than denomination. Someone who would welcome assisting you in understanding the process, rather than just 'scoring a new convert' is what you are after - and the people on here would be well-versed in recommending the appropriate person

I wish you luck in your journey - whichever way it may go. Also remember this: Catholic or Orthodox, we are at the end of the day, the same Church: the Church of Christ.

Good luck!

Misha

Why all of this opposition to Likoudis? His stuff is excellent. He is a convert from the Orthodox Church. And secondly, Soloviev's philosophical works were condemned as heretical by the Orthodox Church. "The Russian Church and the Papacy" is more of a historical work though so his ideas about "Sophia" and all that do not come into play in that work.

I am quite saddened by the advice given to this individual being as this is a Byzantine Catholic forum. Do you think St. Josaphat, Blessed Leonid Feodorov, Blessed Nicholas Charnetsky would give the same advice to this individual? I mean it is not like they are living in an Orthodox country totally isolated from the Catholic Church. If you are a Catholic your advice to this person should be unequivocally- "Go to a Byzantine Catholic Church!"

Look at this quote from Lumen Gentium:

"Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved." (Lumen Gentium, 14)

The following is a Dogmatic statement:
“With Faith urging us we are forced to believe and to hold the one, holy, Catholic Church and that, apostolic, and we firmly believe and simply confess this Church outside of which there is no salvation nor remission of sin… Furthermore, we declare, say, define, and proclaim to every human creature that they by absolute necessity for salvation are entirely subject to the Roman Pontiff.” (Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam, Nov. 18, 1302)

I am really kind of disappointed when people give this advice as I have several Ukrainian friends and have heard stories of how people suffered much during Communism to maintain union with Rome. If they maintained union with Rome in an oppressive regime
how can we just sit back and advise someone in a free society to just go check out the Orthodox Church as if there were no difference?

I believe Orthodox must come into union with Rome, preserving their liturgical and theological heritage as envisioned by Blessed Leonid Feodorov. Am I alone in this belief here?

Tradycja:

Chrsit is Risen!! Indeed He is Risen!!

That's something our Orthodox brethren are in a much better position to answer because he is one of the people their Church has judged. Let's hear them out. As for Soloviev, the Orthodox Church, in my experience, does not split hairs when one is condemned as a heretic. I had a volume by a Greek priest who wrote a work describing living out the Orthodox faith in the Greek tradition only to be told that once he was deposed, all his works were now condemned so as not to confuse the faithful.



No, this is not a Byzantine Catholic forum. Maybe you didn't read the forum's position documents when you asked to be admited as a member, but may I suggest that you read the sticky thread on the Town Hall section above describing who we are. This forum has grown into an Eastern Christian forum and has members of all the Eastern Churches, Orthodox and Catholic, as well as many representatives from the Western Churches, both Catholic and Protestant. We are all here learning about the Christian East, but we are not exclusively an Eastern Catholic or Byzantine Catholic forum.



You may believe this, but many Orthodox members do not believe it at all. In fact, you may browse this forum and find Orthodox visions of what communion will eventually look like and find them really disturbing to you. But the reality of this forum is that we embrace each other without prejudgment and really listen to each other without bringing our own positions to funnel what they say or our own prisms to change their vision.

One Orthodox poster here sees the Papacy as Catholics know it completely dismantled before communion can be restored. His vision, radically different from my own as a Latin Catholic, was something to ponder. His vision sees a communion of national Churches akin to the Orthodox Church wherein Rome would not have any jurisdiction outside its own diocese. It's still something I'm pondering because it is an honest alternative to what prevails in Catholic circles.

You may not be comfortable here if this sounds like something that cuts across your belief system. Please don't bring up all the quotes from various Roman documents. We are all very well familiar with them here. You might be surprised to learn tht many of our Eastern Catholic brethren have positions closer to the Orthodox Church than to the Latin Church's, particularly the Melkites.

In Christ,

Bob
Moderator

I suspect that Cardinal Huzar of Ukraine would be in agreement with Theophan's sentiments as well.

[quote=theophan]
That's something our Orthodox brethren are in a much better position to answer because he is one of the people their Church has judged. Let's hear them out. As for Soloviev, the Orthodox Church, in my experience, does not split hairs when one is condemned as a heretic. I had a volume by a Greek priest who wrote a work describing living out the Orthodox faith in the Greek tradition only to be told that once he was deposed, all his works were now condemned so as not to confuse the faithful.

[b]No, this is not a Byzantine Catholic forum.[/b] Maybe you didn't read the forum's position documents when you asked to be admited as a member, but may I suggest that you read the sticky thread on the Town Hall section above describing who we are. This forum has grown into an Eastern Christian forum and has members of all the Eastern Churches, Orthodox and Catholic, as well as many representatives from the Western Churches, both Catholic and Protestant. We are all here learning about the Christian East, but we are not exclusively an Eastern Catholic or Byzantine Catholic forum.

[quote]I believe Orthodox must come into union with Rome . . . [/quote]

You may believe this, but many Orthodox members do not believe it at all. In fact, you may browse this forum and find Orthodox visions of what communion will eventually look like and find them really disturbing to you. But the reality of this forum is that we embrace each other without prejudgment and really listen to each other without bringing our own positions to funnel what they say or our own prisms to change their vision.

One Orthodox poster here sees the Papacy as Catholics know it completely dismantled before communion can be restored. His vision, radically different from my own as a Latin Catholic, was something to ponder. His vision sees a communion of national Churches akin to the Orthodox Church wherein Rome would not have any jurisdiction outside its own diocese. It's still something I'm pondering because it is an honest alternative to what prevails in Catholic circles.

You may not be comfortable here if this sounds like something that cuts across your belief system. Please don't bring up all the quotes from various Roman documents. We are all very well familiar with them here. You might be surprised to learn tht many of our Eastern Catholic brethren have positions closer to the Orthodox Church than to the Latin Church's, particularly the Melkites.
[/quote]

That is one of the problems in the Orthodox Church though is that they are not "One". What one particular national Church condemns as heresy another one might not have a problem with. Hence the disagreement over whether the "uncreated energies" are Dogma or not and the disagreements between the SCOBA Orthodox and the Old Calendrists.

I apologize, I did misunderstand the scope of the forum, I thought it was primarily Ruthenian Catholic but allowed others to participate as well. I stand corrected.

Additionally, Lumen Gentium is not a "Roman Document", it is part of the Vatican Council II, which was an Ecumenical Council that binds the whole Church. Additionally, Pope Boniface XVIII's statement binds the Universal Church not just the Latin Church.

Well, everyone is entitled to an opinion. In mine, Likoudis' work is tendentious and polemical, his research is shoddy, and he ignores inconvenient facts from Church history. And, while everyone is entitled to his own opinion, as Churchill said, nobody is entitled to his own facts.


I'm glad you put it in those terms. I carefully distinguish between people who convert to something, and people who convert from something. The latter frequently feel the need to justify their change of affiliation by denigrating their former confession. On the other hand, converts to something do not feel as defensive and often find much that is good about their previous home.


Unam Sanctum has no force of law, contrary to whatever anyone ever told you. Even in Boniface's own day, the Bull (an apposite word in this case) was rejected by the majority of bishops, most of the theologians at the great universities, and by every prince and king in Christendom. In short, Boniface had a rather exalted sense of himself, but nobody paid him the least attention, because he was so far outside the consensus fidei.


Let's hope so.

No, you are not.

Dn. Robert

I don't know what you mean by "force of law". The statements regarding faith and morals in Unam Sanctam are infallible. Additionally, they are worded as a definition: "We declare, define...." etc. This is the same language of other Dogmatic definitions such as the Immaculate Conception.

Additionally, Pope Pius XII said in Mystici Corporis
"Nor against this may one argue that the primacy of jurisdiction established in the Church gives such a Mystical Body two heads. For Peter in virtue of his primacy is only Christ's Vicar; so that there is only one chief Head of this Body, namely Christ, Who never ceases Himself to guide the Church invisible, though at the same time He rules it visibly, through him who is His representative on earth, after His glorious Ascension into heaven this Church rested not on Him alone, but on Peter too, its visible foundation stone. That Christ and His Vicar constitute one only Head is [b]the solemn teaching of Our predecessor of immortal memory Boniface VIII in the Apostolic Letter Unam Sanctam; and his successors have never ceased to repeat the same.[/b] "They, therefore, walk in the path of dangerous errors who believe that they can accept Christ as the head of the Church, while not adhering loyally to His Vicar on earth. They have taken away the visible bonds of unity and left the Mystical Body of the Redeemer so obscured and so maimed, that those who are seeking the haven of eternal salvation can neither see it nor find it." (Pope Pius XII, encyclical Mystici Corporis) [u][/u]

You see Pope Pius XII says that the successors of Boniface VIII "never ceased to repeat the same", clearly indicating that this is a matter of not only the extraordinary magisterium but the universal and ordinary magisterium.

This is not just a Roman issue. It is an issue for everyone. These are life and death matters and I think these considerations should be brought up when someone asks if they should become Orthodox or not.

Christ is Risen!! Indeed He is Risen!!



First of all the Orthodox Church is "One." Her unity is expressed as a unity of communion, not of a single point of reference or to an individual see. Her un ity is reflective of that held throughout the Church in the first millenium. The members of the Orthodox Churches are welcome in each othr's parishes and they usually celebrate the Sunday of Orthodoxy together as well as other significant events surrounding the Mystery of God becoming man in the Person of Our Lord Jesus Christ.

As for the Orthodox Church having differing condemnations for heresy, please stick to concrete examples. Painting with a broad brush doesn't cut it. Unlike the Catholic Church where we often have to put up with all kinds of craziness, the Orthodox Church sees no problem--in fact considers it a duty--with/in challenging doctrinal and liturgical abuses within her communion.

The Orthodox Church is not much into defining every last point of the Mystery that is Christ and His ongoing work in the world. Unlike the West, she doesn't see the need to define every last thing, preferring to leave Mystery be Mystery and allowing theological opinions to be just that. So the theologumena concerning the Divine energies are still ongoing in their discussions.

As far as SCOBA and the Old Calendarists, if that were the only issue, there wouldn't be much disagreement. SCOBA members use both the Revised Julian and the Julian calendars and still consider each other canonical. Somehow I believe you haven't yet sought out information about the Orthodox Church or you would understand that the calendar issue is only the surface issue in these disputes among canonical and non-canonical bodies.

In Christ,

Bob

Christ is Risen!! Indeed He is Risen!!

I think you make the same mistake so many who think they are Latin traditionalists make. All of the statements and documents in the Church's history are now read through the prism of Vatican II and its declarations about the Eastern Churches. The Latin Church is no longer the center of the universe. She walks along in the pilgrimage to the Kingdom with the sister Churches. We are still working out what a communion of Churches should be and how it should function. But Catholic is no longer a synonym for the Latin Church or her approach to the Mystery.

In Christ,

BOB

Why are you and others so opposed to these writings!
Afraid?
Stephanos I

Um, really lousy scholarship combined with repetitions of empty polemics that do not advance the cause of Christian unity in the slightest. ignorance always frightens me.

More's the pity.

This would be the same Pius XII who quietly did away with the temporal supremacy of the Pope, a cause near and dear to the heart of Boniface VIII--who would probably consider Pius XII a heretic for so doing?

Please, take your copies of Ott and Denziger to the nearest recycling bin, and deposit them directly.

Walter:

Christ is Risen!! Indeed He is Risen!!

I am sorry we've all gotten a bit off your topic question. Please don't be put off by the direction this has taken. We do respect your conscience and will try to get you some answers.

In the meantime, let's all go back and read the man's question and dilemna. These are the struggles we've all had at some point and we don't want to tramble on the man's conscience or put him into a spiritual tailspin.

Bob

Perhaps we can continue the discussion somewhere else?

Anyway, I think you are confusing Dogma and discipline, how the Pope's temporal power is exercised is discipline so it is debatable. I agree that the Pope should not be micro-managing disciplinary aspects of the Eastern Churches as well.

Boniface VIII's statement about there being no remission of sins outside the Church is dogmatic.

The reason I bring this up is it seems to me the question should be raised when someone asks should they be Catholic or should they be Orthodox is "Where can salvation be found?" That is ultimately what it is all about. Both the Orthodox Church and the Catholic Church cannot be the True Church at the same time. If the Church is now divided then the promises of Our Lord have failed.

First, from the time of the Papal Decretals of Gregory VII until the mid-1950s, the power of the Pope over temporal rulers--to appoint and to depose them according to his own will--was indeed taught dogmatically and implemented dogmatically, though with decreasing effectiveness due to overuse and the inability of the Popes to enforce their decrees; it was last used by Pius V against Elizabeth Tudor, and the world yawned. Though never employed again, the Church upheld the principle and it remained on the books.


Yet Boniface's understanding of what that meant--that one must be a full member of the Catholic Church in order for one to be saved--has been rejected by the Catholic Church and has been at least from the time of Pius IX (another one of those liberal heretics!). "Extra ecclesia nulla sallus" has been interpreted in a broader sense than is expressed in Unam Sanctem, last of all by the Second Vatican Council, which indicated that all those who are saved are saved through the Church, to which they are connected in some mystical manner. Boniface would have a cow.


In a series of documents beginning with Unitatas redintegratio down through Ut Unum Sint and the Balamand Declaration, the Catholic Church has recognized the Orthodox Churches as being true Churches and declared that they are fully sufficient for the salvation of their adherents. Since being Church is a bi-polar condition (i.e., one cannot be "a little bit" Church any more than one can be "a little bit" pregnant), the Catholic Church is conceding that the Orthodox Churches are also a part of the true Church of God. As the saying goes, the only thing preventing full communion is the absence of full communion.

From my perspective, both the Catholic and Orthodox Churches constitute one Church tragically divided. Responsibility for the division rests on both sides; there is blame enough to go around. Both sides are equally wounded by the scandal of division; if the Orthodox Churches are diminished in any way by the absence of communion with the Church of Rome, so the Church of Rome is wounded by its lack of communion with the Orthodox Churches.

Communion will not be restored by demanding that one Church submit to the the authority of the other, but through a mutual recognition of their unity in faith, and only when the desire for true communion in the Holy Spirit transcends the desire to dominate.

Well said and consistent with the direction the Orthodox-Catholic Dialouge, both in Europe and in the Americas, has been taking the past four decades.One of the members of the Dialouge observed that the problem when the last understanding is reached among the Churches will not be with the scholars, teachers and Bishops but with pious people who will have to learn to unburden themselves from the heavy cloak of history and misunderstanding.

Christ is Risen!! Indeed He is Risen!!
stuart:

Well put, well said, well done. I wish the search engine would bring up the threads about what communion is possible, quoting Fr. Robert Taft, S.J. He said that essentially all we can hope for is communion, not any sort of submission one to the other, most likely because of the centuries of mistrust and the attempts to force unity again that have had such tragic results.

I'd also pose for thought the liturgical abuses that have been posted here that have so disturbed so many of us and also our Orthodox brethren who have often wondered to us how such blasphemies can be tolerated. I remember one asking "where is the Council of Bishops?" only to be amazed that there was no such thing with authority to remove a brother bishop who tolerated such things within his territory. There won't ever be any communion as long as liturgical abuses are tolerated even once.

Bob

Vladimir,

Why do you not want to join the Byzantine church?it really would be a good home for you.The Orthodox church would be happy to have you but please do what you feel your heart tells you God will at times give you so many options there is always a solution but this you must take to heart.If I can help you in anyway please send me a note.I will pray for you and in time my brother you will find your home this decision must be yours and yours alone.People are kind and will try to help but only the holy spirit will give you the wisdom as to where your home will be.May God only Bless you and remember it is you and you alone that will know where you belong.
+V.S.

Vladimir,
If indeed you do choose Orthodoxy be very careful there are so many group that claim they are Orthodox and are not,The Ukrainian Orthodox church is one example there are so so many that claim they are U.A.O.C. and have made so many problems for Ukrainians so just beware!